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2015 Federal TrialtranscripttranscriptWritten-Chat Presentation Ruling and Trial Preparation - Day 1 - 2015 Federal TrialThe court limited who could read written Internet chats aloud and announced a limiting instruction, leaving the ruling open to reassessment. Counsel also addressed filings, trial materials, and jury-selection procedures.
Timothy HowardSerrin A. TurnerJoshua Lewis DratelRoss William UlbrichtKatherine B. ForrestCourt ClerkMR. TURNERMR. HOWARDTHE COURTMR. DRATELUnidentified AttorneyTHE DEFENDANTprocedural
2015 Federal Trial/Day 1/January 13, 2015
6 pages·1 witness·667 lines
A jury was sworn and heard competing openings about whether Ross Ulbricht continued operating Silk Road as Dread Pirate Roberts after creating it. The first witness, HSI agent Jared Der-Yeghiayan, described intercepted drug shipments, undercover work, and Tor. The court also set limits on oral readings of written chats.
Written-Chat Presentation Ruling and Trial Preparation
ProceduralProc.Written-Chat Presentation Ruling and Trial Preparation

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK ------------------------------x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

v. 14 Cr. 68 (KBF) ROSS WILLIAM ULBRICHT, Defendant. ------------------------------x New York, N.Y. January 13, 2015 9:20 a.m. Before: HON. KATHERINE B. FORREST, District Judge APPEARANCES PREET BHARARA, United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York SERRIN A. TURNER TIMOTHY HOWARD Assistant United States Attorneys JOSHUA LEWIS DRATEL LINDSAY LEWIS JOSHUA HOROWITZ Attorneys for Defendant

- also present - Special Agent Vincent D'Agostino Molly Rosen, Government Paralegal Nicholas Evert, Government Paralegal Linda Moreno, Defense jury consultant

COURT CLERK: In the matter now on trial, the United States of America versus Ross William Ulbricht, 14 Cr. 68.

Counsel, please state your names for the record.

MR. TURNER: Good morning, your Honor. Serrin Turner for the government. With me at counsel's table is A.U.S.A. Timothy Howard, FBI Agent Vincent D'Agostino and two paralegals from our office, Nicholas Evert and Molly Rosen.

MR. HOWARD: Good morning, your Honor.

THE COURT: Good morning. All right. I am just getting Mr. D'Agostino. I see he is over here. OK. Terrific.

MR. DRATEL: Good morning, your Honor. Joshua Dratel for Mr. Ulbricht, who is standing beside me. With me at counsel table is Lindsay Lewis, of my office, Joshua Horowitz, and also Linda Moreno, who is an attorney who is assisting us with jury selection.

THE COURT: All right. Good morning to all of you.

UNIDENTIFIED ATTORNEY: Good morning, your Honor.

THE COURT: We've got a couple of housekeeping matters to raise right now and then we'll take whatever issues you folks may have in addition.

We're going to get the jury, I think, the panel, about 10 o'clock. That is my guess. The reason for the delay is while we've got our own set of folks, there is another very significant case that is picking a jury today as well, and so there is a lot of folks coming in downstairs. And when we do that, the plan is if all 91 or 92 show up, we'll take about 60, who will fit in a this room, or so, and they will come in and we'll then start from there. So we'll have actually a group of some number, if we get full attendance, who will stay in the other room for a period of time.

All right. Now, one thing that I want to make sure you folks all realize is that while a lot of letters come into the Court's email, copied to both sides, unless they are under seal, we've got to make sure, for purposes of the overall record, that everything is on the docket. We've done our best to try to ensure that whatever we've received, if it is under seal, that it has been placed in the sealed vault. If it is ex parte it is also placed in the sealed vault with a notation of that, and if it belongs on the docket because it does not require being under seal, which should be everything possible, then that belongs on the docket.

So I want to have you folks take individual responsibility for ensuring that whatever you have sent to the Court is appropriately captured in that universe. In other words, there should be nothing which you think I have in a file in my office. All right? Because if one day somebody has to reconstruct the file, I want them to be able to reconstruct it in its entirety. So we've done what we can. Going forward, it will be easier but let's just get all ourselves reconciled in that process.

Now, there is one open item from Mr. Dratel's letter of January 9th. I did not receive a response from the government, that I'm aware of, relating to the oral presentation of the Internet evidence. Mr. Turner.

MR. TURNER: Your Honor, our position would be these are records just like any other records. They can be read to the jury. You have wire transcripts that are often read to the jury. This is not an unusual situation. And I don't even know how mechanically we would work it so that you would type these chats out and have them shown to the jury that way.

THE COURT: Let's back up a little bit. It is typically the case that wires are in their -- you've got your line transcriptions and they will be highlighted, and the government typically has the agent recite what is on the screen, or whichever witness is -- sometimes it is a cooperating witness who was a party to that, just to literally read out the words on the page. That is a different process from what I understood you folks were proposing here, which was to have two folks basically be the voices, if you will, of the Internet communications. So let's separate out the two because, as I understand it, the thrust of the letter is towards this back and forth between these voices, the two voices, as opposed to the first, more typical way, which is on the screen.

So as to the two voices, are you folks willing to forgo that and let's see if we can narrow this, and then we will get Mr. Dratel's position on doing it the traditional way?

MR. TURNER: Well, your Honor, I certainly -- I mean, I myself have had cases with wires, for example, where the transcripts were read in exactly that way, with two parties, one reading one voice, the other reading the other. I think it makes it easier for the jury to understand rather than have the whole thing in one person's voice. I think your Honor already addressed this issue of, you know, inflection and that sort of thing in terms of reading it in an unfair way. I really don't think that will happen, but that is something the Court can address at that time, if it does happen.

We are simply -- I should just clarify, I think we're only planning on doing that where we have lengthy chats that we may not have -- we may not introduce in the course of a particular witness' testimony but read them after a witness testifies. So I think there will be a number of chats where we read the whole thing in, because it is, you know, only half a page and we don't do the two-person reading of the document. But for lengthy interchanges I think it will make it easier for the jury to understand. I really don't think it would be prejudicial to the defendant in any way. If that circumstance does arise, the Court can at that time decide maybe to do it differently. I don't think it will be a problem.

THE COURT: I hear that position. The defendant has presented, I think, an issue that's different from that, which is that wires are a type of intended oral communication and that the written chats, while they are called "chat," which has an oral connotation, the written chats were not necessarily intended to be orally communicated and so that there is a difference between the two. And there might be a way in which the jury then is brought to believe a particular -- or have a particular view of the chat when it is rendered into oral comment.

MR. TURNER: So it seems to me there are two issues. If that is the issue, that it is a written communication, I really don't think that is an issue because all the time you have letters, you have contracts, you have all sorts of documents that are constantly used as evidence at trial, and it is absolutely routine to read from those documents, you know, even in their entirety sometimes. Just because it was originally written doesn't mean you can't communicate it to the jury orally in some way.

THE COURT: That is exactly, Mr. Turner, why I was separating out the two issues, which is what I was calling the typical way, which is that written things are communicated orally but not through, as I understood it, a paralegal or two paralegals who were going to not act the part, because they would simply be reciting the words, but for purposes of this discussion act the part.

MR. TURNER: Right. It seems to me there are two issues. One, should a written communication be transmitted orally? To me, I think the answer is clearly yes. It happens all the time. The other issue is is there some danger of unfair prejudice if you have parties reading it in this way that they will engage in certain inflections or that sort of thing. I believe the Court has already sufficiently addressed that.

So our position would be we should proceed as we originally planned, and if for some reason the evidence is introduced in a prejudicial way, we address that at that time, but I don't think there is any reason to expect or anticipate that at this point.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dratel, let me have you address also these two buckets that I've separated the issue into. One is having this proceed in what I would call the typical fashion of it. There is a written document. It is on the screen. Either one or sometimes the prosecutor will with a witness do a back and forth and that is very typical, and that is different in the Court's view of potentially from what I am for purposes of this discussion calling the paralegal version.

MR. DRATEL: This is different in the sense that it is not an isolated letter or paragraph or something like that, which, by the way, if someone objected to, it might be appropriate in the context of the case. So I am not suggesting that because things are done traditionally that somehow it wouldn't necessarily also be subject to the same type of problem if in fact the communications were designed for a certain type of absorption by the recipient.

In this instance it is very much the case that chats are designed to be absorbed through reading, not through hearing. So there are a couple of problems. One, the Court has already identified the distinction between transcripts of conversations that are oral to begin with and these chats. One is that there are a fair number of nonverbal parts of these communications, symbols, emoticons, things like that, all of that which is not necessarily communicable in an oral context.

The second part is that these -- the way that a person perceives and absorbs the information is very much tied to the medium that it is in. So to hear it may mean that the jury is not reading it, and they really ought to read these. These were meant to be read. They are a written medium, and it is a new -- it is different. It has evolved over time. So that it is not a letter that people often read aloud in the context of a group. You don't have that in a chat context. It is not the way they exist. It is very personal. It's very intimate on a certain level, and it is designed for that medium in a way that letters do not replicate in any way. And I think that, again, because of also just the elements in there that aren't verbal, and we want the jury to absorb them in the way that they were provided to be absorbed and not to hear it and not to read it from the screen.

Also, these chats will be in evidence so it is not an issue of the jury's access to them. They can read them on the screen. Often we have transcripts on the screen that juries follow along while they are hearing them because sometimes they are not even audible so they read them more than hear them to begin with. So juries are not -- it's not an unusual issue for a jury to read a document rather than to hear it. It is not -- I mean, in the sense that oftentimes it is simultaneous. Here we are saying it shouldn't be simultaneous, it should be exclusive for purposes of reading.

THE COURT: All right. So here is what my ruling is at this point in time, and we can reassess this ruling if and how this plays out there is a need to reassess it and it becomes obvious that things should change. But what I am going to do is to have the government proceed in the manner that it would typically proceed and not do anything different. In other words, we are not going do it with the paralegals. The prosecutor can proceed with either a witness on the stand or the prosecutor with another prosecutor. I will then give a limiting instruction stating that these were originally written. They were in no sense -- there is no indication that they were orally communicated. The jury should understand that. The jury should read them. They are meant to be read. The jury should note the punctuation and emoticons. But there is an interest in the convenience of conveying the information to the jury in a manner in which we can all be clear in court of what's happening at the same time, and it would be novel to have a document where there is a particular piece of evidence pointed out where there is not some specific reference to the text of that through oral communications. Trials are about the typically sensory communication of evidence.

So we'll proceed that way. Let's eliminate the paralegal version of this and just have the government proceed as they would normally have proceeded in some other case, and I'll give the instruction as to how this material should be taken and reviewed. All right?

Now, in terms of the next --

MR. TURNER: Your Honor.

MR. TURNER: May I just inquire with one question?

So if the government wishes to put in a -- read in a chat after a witness has left the stand, should the prosecutor just read it in in its entirety rather than having a two-way reading of it, just the prosecution --

THE COURT: What I am suggesting is don't introduce other people into the process who appear to be actors in a way, even if they are just paralegals. If you and Mr. Howard want to just read back and forth, you can read back and forth. But I don't want other people coming in for purposes of assuming a position on the stand or somewhere else where they are doing a reading as if it's a dialogue in a scene from something. All right?

THE COURT: So we'll do it the old-fashioned way, the way it is typically and normally done at trial and nothing specific.

Now, I was supposed to get an updated exhibit list from the government. Do you folks have one, or is there not one? If there is not one, then that is fine.

MR. TURNER: There is one, your Honor, and we can provide that as well as an updated disc of exhibits.

THE COURT: All right. Is there an updated witness list, or is the witness list that is operative that which you have already shared?

MR. TURNER: There is an updated witness list and we can provide that as well.

THE COURT: And have you shared all of the names at this point?

THE COURT: In the past you have always shared everything with the defendants. They have all the names and they have that information?

THE COURT: Terrific. Thank you. I have received an updated witness list.

In terms of the jury selection, let me just tell you folks, give you a short reminder as to how it is going to proceed. The folks will come into the room, and Joe will randomly from his box spin the box. My method is to put the 12 in the panel in the box, and of the first group there will be four alternates. Also put into the first group we'll be working for the initial questions with all 16 but the peremptories will be against the 12 first and then separately against the four as the alternates. All right? So the peremptories are the first peremptories, 10 to the defense, 6 to the government in six rounds simultaneous, and then a separate two-round, one each, as to the alternates. That will be done separately and I will make it clear when that is happening.

The jurors are going to be given a pen along with some biographical questions because we'll eventually -- whoever is seated in the box before the peremptories will have an opportunity -- and, indeed, not opportunity, we're going to ask them to stand up and give us 30 seconds about themselves. What kind of job they have, what their spouse or significant other might do, if they've got children, what they read, what they watch on TV, sort of 30 seconds. On the back of that piece of paper, which is blank, they will be instructed when they first come in to write down any questions to which they have a "yes" answer, and so if I put somebody from the audience into the box we will be asking them did you have any "yes" answers and picking up from there.

Again, it's use it or lose it. You can't accumulate your peremptory strikes. If you waive for a round, which happens frequently for various tactical reasons that you folks may have, it's use it or lose it.

All right. Now, what is the order of witnesses for today, if we have? Who is your first witness?

MR. TURNER: Homeland Security Investigations Agent -- Special Agent Jared Der-Yeghiayan.

THE COURT: Now, glossary. Have you folks reached any kind of agreement on any kind of glossary or technical presentation of any kind?

MR. TURNER: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. What I am going to do is assess evidence as it comes in and will then I think determine how much of the evidence appears, potentially, to be highly technical, and it may be that things are explained in such a way that it doesn't get there and/or that even highly technical concepts are explained in a way that are understandable. But if I believe that things are not understandable to the jury, that things are going too quickly and words are being thrown around that can't be understood by the average juror, we'll talk about what might be a reasonable way to proceed at that time.

Now, I have -- I think we have one other issue that we wanted to raise at this time that I think it makes sense to raise in the robing room, if the defendant will consent to waive his presence. If he won't, then we can do it at the sidebar. Your choice.

MR. DRATEL: We can waive, your Honor, for the purposes that we discussed.

THE DEFENDANT: That would be fine.

THE COURT: Thank you. So let's go on into the robing room with the court reporter to discuss this one issue.

ProceduralProc.Sealed Robing-Room Proceeding

(Pages 15-28 sealed by order of the Court)

(Continued on next page)

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