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2015 Federal TrialtranscripttranscriptTrial Scheduling, Expert Notice, Proposed Objection Instruction, and Juror 3's Attendance - Day 2 - 2015 Federal TrialOutside the jury's presence on Day 2, the court addressed trial scheduling, defense expert notice, an instruction about objections and rulings, and explanations of Tor.
Serrin A. TurnerJoshua Lewis DratelKatherine B. ForrestJared Der-YeghiayanCourt ClerkMR. TURNERTHE COURTMR. DRATELJared Der-Yeghiayanproceduralsidebar
2015 Federal Trial/Day 2/January 14, 2015
7 pages·1 witness·2,318 lines
Jared Der-Yeghiayan described Silk Road’s payments, his undercover staff work, and surveillance of Ross Ulbricht at Glen Park library. He explained a conditional plan to test whether Ulbricht was Dread Pirate Roberts. The court addressed authentication and hearsay objections, distinguishing evidentiary findings from ultimate conclusions and limiting the uses of some exhibits.
Trial Schedule, Expert Notice, and Proposed Objection Instruction
ProceduralProc.Trial Schedule, Expert Notice, and Proposed Objection Instruction

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK ------------------------------x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

v. 14 Cr. 68 (KBF) ROSS WILLIAM ULBRICHT, Defendant. ------------------------------x New York, N.Y. January 14, 2015 9:20 a.m. Before: HON. KATHERINE B. FORREST, District Judge APPEARANCES PREET BHARARA, United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York BY: SERRIN A. TURNER TIMOTHY HOWARD

Assistant United States Attorneys JOSHUA LEWIS DRATEL LINDSAY LEWIS JOSHUA HOROWITZ Attorneys for Defendant - also present - Special Agent Vincent D'Agostino Molly Rosen, Government Paralegal Nicholas Evert, Government Paralegal Sharon Kim, Government Legal Intern

(In open court; jury not present)

COURT CLERK: Continuation of the matter now on trial, United States of America v. Ross William Ulbricht.

Counsel, state your names for the record.

MR. TURNER: Serrin Turner for the government. With me at counsel table is Timothy Howard and Nicholas Evert, a paralegal from our office, as well as Molly Rosen, another paralegal.

THE COURT: Thank you. Who is the person at the very far end?

MR. TURNER: I'm sorry. That's an intern from our office, Sharon Kim.

THE COURT: Thank you. Good morning.

MR. DRATEL: Joshua Dratel for Ross Ulbricht standing next to me, also Lindsay Lewis from my office and Joshua Horowitz is counsel as well.

THE COURT: Good morning.

I have a couple of things to go over with you folks and then if you have any items that you want to raise, we'll take those up. One is, I wanted to make sure that everybody is okay with the position of the podium. I know that, Mr. Turner, in the middle of -- or at the very commencement of your direct yesterday, I had you move it back so that really jurors nos. 5 and 6 could have a clear view. I didn't know if you felt that setting up in that way somehow caused any concern in terms of your voice carrying or anything else.

MR. TURNER: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: Terrific.

In terms of the protests and/or people being outside in the front, there is nothing. As I understand it, it's empty out front in terms of that. There's just the normal morning traffic.

Does anybody have any other information?

MR. TURNER: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Dratel?

MR. DRATEL: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: Terrific. Hopefully, that will be behind us.

In terms of the schedule, as you folks know, we don't sit on Fridays. I forgot to mention that to the jury yesterday, and I will do that this morning. Has there been any confusion on counsels' part as to that schedule?

MR. TURNER: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: I'll go ahead and mention that to the jury and make sure that they understand: No trial on Friday.

In terms of the defense, obviously, Mr. Dratel, you don't have to preview any evidence at all. It's not your burden. But I did note, just in terms in timing, that you hadn't previewed the names or even, generally speaking, the identity of any particular type of witness, whether there's going to be a computer expert, for instance. And for my planning purposes, we don't have to say anything to the jury. I'm wondering if there's somebody that you know of who is going to take up at least a week of time. I don't need to know who they are, but what are you predicting that point?

MR. DRATEL: Obviously, without seeing the rest of the government's case as to whether we'll even call some people because I may get them all done through the government's witnesses, --

MR. DRATEL: -- but I think that right now, we're looking at probably a defense case even -- my estimate right now, it's very rough, is probably three or four at the most.

MR. DRATEL: Yes. That's probably the most.

THE COURT: That's fine. I do understand it's fluid.

MR. DRATEL: Depending on when we get done. It could be two or one depending on when we get done with the government's case.

THE COURT: I understand it's fluid. Most of it will depend on what happens in what's to come with the government's case, so you're by no means held to that. I'm just trying to get a sense of whether or not you had a computer expert in your pocket who you were thinking of having on the stand for a week, in which case, I just wanted to know that.

MR. TURNER: May I speak to that briefly. The defense is required to give us notice of any expert they plan to use and we have asked for any such notice. None has been given. So if any expert is sprung on us at the last minute, we will object for lack of notice.

THE COURT: I assume you folks are giving each other all of the required notices that are necessary. I had just noted yesterday during the opening that there hadn't been a preview of anything in particular, but nor is the defendant required to do so.

MR. DRATEL: Yes. And we'll provide, as soon as I have a firm intention to call a witness, we will provide it. If it's an expert, we'll do it at the earliest possible rather than at the latest.

THE COURT: Terrific. Thank you. Then, did you, Mr. Dratel, want me to give the jury an instruction on ladies and gentlemen, you'll note that there are objections and there will be objections by counsel for both the government and the defendant from time to time, that's perfectly appropriate, indeed that's expected and that's counsel doing their job and you should draw no inference from the fact of objections or the Court's rulings?

MR. DRATEL: I have written something up but you just covered it.

THE COURT: If you have a script, I'm happy to take it to make sure I cover whatever wording you prefer. Let me just read what you've got and see if the government has any comments.

MR. DRATEL: Mine might be a little long.

THE COURT: This won't take more than 30 seconds to do.

THE COURT: I'm happy to do this.

Mr. Turner.

MR. TURNER: I have no objection to the language.

THE COURT: I will use your language, Mr. Dratel.

MR. DRATEL: Thank you.

THE COURT: I'll do that at the beginning. And then lastly, I just wanted to comment, as you folks know, we spoke a little bit pretrial about the fact that this case may involve varying amounts of technology. As you heard during the voir dire process, I told the jury they don't have to be experts in technology. They'll be provided with whatever evidence there is that they need to make a decision based on one way or the other during the trial.

I did suggest to you folks that a glossary would be helpful or something like that. I understand you have not been able to reach an agreement, and so be it. In a criminal case, I am not going to try to come up with something or impose something.

I do want to note that to the extent the government has a view about the clarity of yesterday, I think what came out is that there's something called a tor browser. What that is I think is mumbo jumbo to most people on the jury right now. I think they understand there's a tor browser and another browser and they're different, and that tor is associated with Silk Road, but I think that that's about all that came out.

So in terms of -- that will be up for the jury to decide. They may have heard it differently, but in terms of clarity, I do think clarity of the evidence is important here. The jury I do think needs to understand things. I wanted to give you a sense that there still is room for clarity.

MR. TURNER: Okay. What we hoped to convey is that it also hides the IP address of the user; in our view, that's really the essence of what they need to understand. We're not seeking to try to provide a seminar on how tor works. We don't think it's really necessary, but I think the point is, it hides an IP address and, therefore, allows people to anonymize their identities and their locations. That's really all we're trying to get across.

THE COURT: How ever you choose to put on the evidence and whatever points you think are most important is entirely up to you. I wanted to let you know that sometimes when you're living and breathing a case for so very long and you try to reduce it down to something that's simple, it can even be more complex than you often think, but you folks ultimately will do what you choose to do.

That's what I had. What did you folks have, if anything, that you would like to raise before we bring the jury in?

MR. TURNER: Nothing else.

MR. DRATEL: Nothing, except the instruction.

THE COURT: How are we doing with the jury? Today is the first day, but we're getting a sense as to the time timeliness of the jury. We are currently waiting on nine. Hopefully, they'll be here shortly, but there still is jury selection going on in another big case and there are a substantial number of people still coming in downstairs as a result, which can cause some delays. So let's just take a quick break until we have got more information and hopefully we'll get our entire group here shortly.

Thank you.

COURT CLERK: All rise.

(Recess)

ProceduralProc.Juror 3's Absence and Possible Alternate Substitution

THE COURT: Let's be seated. We have a decision to make. We are missing one juror. We have 15 of the 16. We have all except for juror no. 3. So it's the juror in the third seat. At this point, and we have called his cell phone a couple of times and gotten his voicemail and we have not received any phone calls from him, and they were instructed if they were going to be late to call.

At this point, I would be willing to proceed with one of the alternates, but I also don't think it's been such a very long time that if anyone has any opposition to that, that I would hesitate to wait a little bit longer, but we should then talk about how long we wait before we then proceed.

Let me also say before people discuss their views on this that it would normally be my practice, barring any reason to do anything differently, that if the alternates are used, the alternates are used in the order in which they're seated. So we would use alternate no. 1 first, alternate no. 3 and then no. 4 so we would proceed along. So that would mean alternate no. 1 one would come down and sit in the open chair.

Views?

MR. TURNER: The parties briefly conferred, your Honor. I think we both agree we should provide a little more time. It's the first day after yesterday. The juror may be unfamiliar with the area, may have gotten lost, there may be a problem with the subway. Who knows?

THE COURT: Have you folks discussed what amount of time you either individually or mutually agree would be the right amount of time? And I'll see whether I agree.

MR. DRATEL: We haven't discussed that.

THE COURT: Why don't we say 10:30 then? They were supposed to be here by 9:15 to be ready. I think a full hour, if we're unable to reach him on his cell phone and he doesn't call us, then I think that would be the right place to cut it off.

MR. DRATEL: Can we come up for a second.

THE COURT: Sure. Come on up.

sidebarsidebarContacting Absent Juror 3

(At the side bar)

MR. DRATEL: The reason wanted to do it side bar, I didn't want to draw attention to the juror or embarrass him or anything. And I can't remember -- I know who juror no. 3 is, but I can't remember right now as to whether he identified where he works. But is there a possibility we could call there to find out whether, you know, he's got some problem there?

I don't know what the situation is with people. Sometimes they don't recognize the implications for being chosen on a case and then all of a sudden, other things come up. And also, I guess we could maybe we could text him, too, if we have a cell number, sometimes at least -- even on my phone, sometimes texts are much more immediate in terms of my recognition of them than telephone calls.

THE COURT: We have his contact information, including the mobile phone.

So have we called only the mobile phone?

COURT CLERK: Yes.

THE COURT: So we called the other -- we have one other number.

COURT CLERK: No, just the mobile phone.

THE COURT: Have we texted yet?

COURT CLERK: Not yet.

THE COURT: We'll text. And that would be what we do and then we'll see -- I thought yesterday my explanation was, I hoped, clear. I'll reiterate it this morning that we can't start unless they're all here. We'll do that right away. And at 10:30, let's confer and see where we are.

THE COURT: All right. So I'm going to have my deputy text juror no. 3.

ProceduralProc.Juror 3's Return and Trial Scheduling

(In open court)

THE COURT: We're going to take a break until 10:30 or until we have a first array of jurors, whichever comes first. It is likely as a result that our mid-morning break will be truncated, so you folks should just take that into consideration.

(Recess)

(Continued on next page)

(Jury not present)

THE COURT: All right. We now have a full jury and Juror Number 3 has apologized to my deputy profusely for his tardiness. So we are ready to proceed.

COURT CLERK: All rise as the jury enters.

(Continued on next page)

(Jury present)

THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, let's all be seated. Thank you.

I've just got a couple of housekeeping matters to address and then one other issue. There is not going to be trial on Fridays unless you are deliberating. All right? So Friday is a day that I do everything else, essentially, and counsel prepares to make use of the time most efficiently. So we won't have trial on Fridays.

Now, if you are deliberating -- and there will be a point when you are deliberating -- then we will sit on Friday, but that's not going to be for several weeks. OK? So you are not going to have to report for trial this Friday.

Also, Monday is Martin Luther King Day and that is a court holiday. The court is closed on Martin Luther King Day. And so there won't be trial on Friday or Monday, but we will be picking up on every other day of the week.

The second matter is that we are going to be serving you breakfast -- a continental breakfast in the morning and giving you folks a coffee service. When I say "coffee service," it is coffee, it is tea, it is also water that you will have. So there will be a continental breakfast, and I do know that things happen in terms of people's ability to get here on time but that is an added incentive to try to get people here so that we can start promptly.

Now, the last thing is that you have heard yesterday the beginning of the first witness and you heard counsel objecting, and I wanted to just make sure that you understand that objections and lodging objections by counsel is perfectly appropriate. It is expected. You are not to draw any conclusions from the objections made by counsel. It is part of their job. And, similarly, don't draw any conclusions from my rulings other than whether the evidence in question or answer is admissible. The objections relate to legal issues and principles that are within my authority to decide, and making objections to evidence or questions or answers is entirely appropriate regardless of my rulings on any particular objection. And you will hear throughout the course of the trial both -- all counsel making objections when appropriate. All right? So I just wanted to make sure you all had heard a little bit about that.

Now, without anything further, we are ready to proceed.

I want to remind you, sir, that you are under oath from yesterday.

JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Thank you, your Honor. JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN, resumed, and testified further as follows:

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Turner, you may continue, sir.

MR. TURNER: Thank you, your Honor.

Continue to next page2.Jared Der-Yeghiayan — Direct (Part 2)