10.Brian Shaw — Direct (Part 2)
252 linesMR. HOWARD: Just real briefly, Mr. Shaw, the date is March 26, 2013, correct.
BRIAN SHAW: Correct.
MR. HOWARD: And so what does that mean with respect to this authentication case?
BRIAN SHAW: It that means this file was last modified on March 26, 2013, which means from that point forward this file was valid for authentication.
MR. HOWARD: Earlier you testified that an SSH authentication key is used to authenticate access for an administrator into a computer server without a password, correct?
BRIAN SHAW: That is correct.
MR. HOWARD: And so does this mean that as of March 26, 2013, a username with Frosty with a computer named Frosty had what was authorized to access the server provided they have a matching key?
BRIAN SHAW: That is correct.
MR. HOWARD: Mr. Shaw, earlier we just briefly mentioned computer databases. Could you please provide some more details about what they are and how they work?
BRIAN SHAW: Sure. Computer databases are a great way to store structured information. So by storing it in a nice clean way, you are able to quickly retrieve data back from the database.
A good example might be a local mom-and-pop shop like your florist would have information about their vendors, different salespeople that they deal with, and traditionally these shops would have a Rolodex with, you know, a card for every single salesperson that they've ever dealt with over the years and Rolodexes are organized by the salespeople's last names. Each one of these cards would have, you know, like the person's first name, last name, telephone number, an email address, and the name of the company that they work for. By storing information like that in a database, if it ever comes to a time like, oh, I remember there was a salesperson John from company XYZ but I can't -- I don't remember his last name, if you had that data in a database you could easily ask the database please give me all the salespeople from company XYZ whose first name started with the letter J and you would get your results back quickly.
Another benefit of databases, on that Rolodex card you could also say all of our contracts are located in the filing cabinet 2, drawer 3. So that way you could easily when you are going through the Rolodex say, OK, for this company I need to pull up some contracts. Go straight to the filing cabinet.
The benefit of databases is you can easily do those types of links backwards and forwards to quickly retrieve data.
MR. HOWARD: So did you discover any computer databases on the two servers that you analyzed?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I did.
MR. HOWARD: Did you examine the contents of those servers?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I did.
MR. HOWARD: And did you compare the databases you found on each of those two servers?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I did.
MR. HOWARD: And what did you discover?
BRIAN SHAW: There was significant similarities between the structure of the databases and significant overlap in the data within the files that I reviewed.
MR. HOWARD: And what did the data in those databases appear to pertain to?
BRIAN SHAW: It pertained to the function of the Silk Road Marketplace.
MR. HOWARD: Now, Mr. Shaw, could you please -- so what kinds of information did the databases contain?
BRIAN SHAW: Some examples of what was in the database, there was a table called "Transactions" that stored the transaction information, so purchases of items from the marketplace. Additionally, there was information on messages that were sent between two individuals, two user accounts on the marketplace itself.
MR. HOWARD: And this transactional and message information, was it located on both servers you looked at?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, it was.
MR. HOWARD: Would you please flip in your binder to what has been marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibit 920A, please.
BRIAN SHAW: OK.
MR. HOWARD: Do you recognize what this is?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I do.
MR. HOWARD: And what is it?
BRIAN SHAW: It's a technical description of the messages table for the database.
MR. HOWARD: And this is where the messages in the databases were stored?
BRIAN SHAW: Correct.
MR. HOWARD: Did you take this screenshot?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I did.
MR. HOWARD: The government offers Government Exhibit 920A.
MR. DRATEL: The same objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. The objection is overruled. 920A is received.
(Government's Exhibit 920A received in evidence)
BY MR. HOWARD:
MR. HOWARD: Would you please -- Mr. Shaw, could you please explain what's located in the first column here?
BRIAN SHAW: Sure. Kind of like the Rolodex where I said you had to have the first name, last name of the company, what you see here are the fields that are stored for each individual record inside of the table. And some of the fields that are stored in this information is data about who the message was sent to, who the message was sent from, and then the subject and the body of the message that was sent.
MR. HOWARD: So this is the information that each record in the messaging database contained?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes. Each record would have this type of information in it.
MR. HOWARD: Was each message uniquely identified somehow in the databases?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, they are.
MR. HOWARD: How were they identified?
BRIAN SHAW: They were uniquely identified by the index column here.
MR. HOWARD: Would you please look in your binder. At the back there should be something that's marked as Government Exhibit 960.
BRIAN SHAW: Yes.
MR. HOWARD: And what is this?
BRIAN SHAW: It's a video that I put together to show some examples from the private messages table.
MR. HOWARD: Is it on a CD?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, it is.
MR. HOWARD: How do you recognize this exhibit?
BRIAN SHAW: It has my initials on it.
MR. HOWARD: The government offers 960 for demonstrative purposes.
THE COURT: 960?
MR. HOWARD: Yes.
MR. DRATEL: No objection for demonstrative purposes.
THE COURT: All right. Received for demonstrative purposes.
(Government's Exhibits 960 received in evidence)
MR. HOWARD: My I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
(Pause)
MR. HOWARD: Could you please describe what's going on in this video?
BRIAN SHAW: Sure. What we're looking at here are messages taken straight from the messages table in the database. You'll notice that the two fields here have some long strings -- and in addition to the front field -- some long strings of semi-random letters and data. So what you do is you resolve that information by looking at the users table. So by doing simple database joins, I was able to resolve that information.
Could you hit play, please.
MR. HOWARD: Actually, could you hold on one second.
So when you say that -- you called this random, are these uniquely identified users in the users table?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, they are.
MR. HOWARD: Please proceed.
BRIAN SHAW: Could you pause, please.
So what you see here, I was able to resolve the usernames, who sent the message and who the message was sent to, and I also converted the date to a normal date that you and I would understand. For example, you know, a message here was sent from username "Pacco" to username "Red Bull." The subject, I just typed in "subject." And the body of the message was simply a question mark.
Hit play, please.
We will scroll through a few messages from the table.
(Indicating)
BRIAN SHAW: Could you hit pause, please.
One of the benefits of having the data stored in a database is you could quickly retrieve messages sent from a specific user to a specific user. So a very simple query to ask of the database. In this instance what we're looking at are messuages sent from the account Dread Pirate Roberts to the account Inigo.
Could you hit play, please.
(Video playing)
BRIAN SHAW: I believe that concludes the video. Thank you.
MR. HOWARD: So, Mr. Shaw, in the last example there, you showed an example asking the database to return all of the messages between -- from the Dread Pirate Roberts to Inigo, correct?
BRIAN SHAW: Correct.
MR. HOWARD: Can you ask other kinds of questions of the messages database?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, you can.
MR. HOWARD: Could you please flip into what is Government Exhibit 930 in your binder, please?
BRIAN SHAW: OK.
MR. HOWARD: Do you recognize what this is?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I do.
MR. HOWARD: What is this?
BRIAN SHAW: This is a message that was recovered from one of the servers.
MR. HOWARD: Does the data in this exhibit accurately reflect information about that message in the databases you reviewed?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, it does.
MR. HOWARD: Did you participate in the creation of this exhibit?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I did.
MR. HOWARD: The government offers 930 into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: Just a minute, your Honor.
(Pause)
MR. DRATEL: Objection to hearsay, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. DRATEL: And Vayner.
THE COURT: All right. The objections are overruled, and Government Exhibit 930 is received.
(Government's Exhibit 930 received in evidence)
MR. HOWARD: Could we zoom in on the top of the message.
MR. HOWARD: So here we have a date and time of December 31, 2012, at 9:19:23, from Dread Pirate Roberts to NorCal420HookUp. Subject: Account status.
Mr. Shaw, is that all information that you pulled from the database?
BRIAN SHAW: This information all came from the database, correct.
MR. HOWARD: We are going to be looking at all the messages later.
Whenever we have this header information, was that taken from the database?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, it was.
MR. HOWARD: And how about the body part of the message, where was that taken from?
BRIAN SHAW: That was stored in the database information.
MR. HOWARD: Can you zoom in on this.
"NorCal, My representative tells me he's having trouble communicating with you, so I'll be handling your case personally. I reviewed your correspondence so far and I'd like to make a couple of points to clarify why you've lost your selling privileges. From the Seller's Guide: "Do not create listings that instruct customers to pay outside of escrow, or are used for any purpose other than to list an item to be sold for the listed price using the site checkout system. If you instruct your buyers to pay you in any other way, or to contact you off-site, your seller privileges WILL be revoked." You created a listing called "Listing for "Other" transactions" with a price of zero and proceeded to accept payment directly to your account. Hopefully that clears up why your account was suspended. Normally that would be the end of it and your only option would be to sell your wares elsewhere or start over with a new account. However, we've recently started a second chance program where you can have your account back if you pay for the commissions we lost and of course abide by the Seller's Guide from now on. Regarding your claim that you don't owe this and deserve your account back because Silk Road experienced down-time, defacement, and is operated on the Tor network. This is not the case. You do not have a right to the business I generate for you through Silk Road. Your status as a vendor here is a privileged that is contingent on you following the rules, which you have not. You can either accept my second chance and play by the rules from now on, start over with a new account, or go elsewhere. Regarding your threats, they are unprofessional and do not phase me one bit. I will overlook them as an emotional response to an overwhelming situation and AGAIN, give you a second chance to repair your relationship with me and get your account in good standing. If I get any response from you that isn't cordial and in compliance with what I have told you you need to do to get your vendor privileges back, your account will remain suspended permanently. Hopefully we can put this behind us and have a fresh start in 2013. -DPR"
So the private messages table reflected this is a message sent by the user Dread Pirate Roberts, correct?
BRIAN SHAW: Correct.
MR. HOWARD: Now, Mr. Shaw, could you please -- now flip through your binder and take a look at what's been marked for identification purposes as Government Exhibits 931, 932, 933 and 935.
BRIAN SHAW: OK.
MR. HOWARD: Do you recognize what these exhibits are?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I do.
MR. HOWARD: Just like Government Exhibit 930, are these also private messages that you located in the databases?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, they are.
MR. HOWARD: Did you also participate in the creation of these exhibits?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I did.
MR. HOWARD: Have you confirmed that all of the information that is in these exhibits truly and accurately reflect information from the databases?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I have.
MR. HOWARD: The government offers 931, 932, 933 and 935.
MR. DRATEL: The same objections, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. The objections are overruled. Those documents are received.
(Government's Exhibits 931, 932, 933 and 935 received in evidence)
MR. HOWARD: Please publish 931, please.
MR. HOWARD: It's dated February 25, 2013, from Dread Pirate Roberts to SweFarmacy. Subject: Withdrawals.
"SweFarmaci, what happened!!!
"I help you out and repay me by exploiting a bug in my system? That's not cool man, you should have told me about it. I want to give you a chance to do the right thing and put the money back. If you don't, I'll get your mailing address from one of the two vendors who your ordered from from your laksam account and hunt you down, understand? Don't think I don't have people in Sweden.
"Doesn't matter, I know you'll do the right thing, right?
"-DPR"
Would you please publish 932, Mr. Evert.
It is dated April 11, 2013, from Dread Pirate Roberts to supercanna. Subject: Expurdue.
"Hi supercanna,
"Do you remember a user you may have worked with named expurdue? He managed to exploit a hole in the site and ripped me off for a good chunk of change. I am hoping you can help me track him down and recover my funds. Let me know if you have any info on him at all.
"Thanks,
"DPR."
Mr. Evert, would you please publish Government Exhibit 933. The message is dated July 12, 2013, from Dread Pirate Roberts to gold. Subject: Money exchange.
"Hey, if you have a problem you should come to me instead of posting bad numbers on the forum. It's really not cool and you should take them down and apologize. Silk Road isn't some bureaucracy. I consider us business partners. Yes I made a mistake and the message I had intended for you and the other vendors to read giving you a heads up about the changes was not delivered, that was my fault. I apologized for that publicly and I apologize for it to you now.
"I'm surprised that commission increase on your $10k listing has hurt your business so much, but I recognize that running an exchange business has much tighter margins and should therefore be treated differently. I had actually hoped to help you specifically by making it possible for you to peg your gold bullion listings the the price of gold, but it looks like I've done more harm than good. I'm in the process of developing a separate section of the site for money exchanges and have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.
"1) Are you willing to accept cash in the mail?
"2) What is the smallest denomination you could work with? $5? $10?
"Silk Road was never set up to facilitate money exchanges. I'm pleased that you've been able to run a good business up to this point here, but until I get a system in place that caters to your needs, it will be a challenge to fit you in with the rest of the vendors. I don't want to say too much without hearing your side of things first, so I'll stop here and hopefully we can have a rational dialogue about this.
"DPR."
Mr. Evert, could you please publish Government Exhibit 935, please.
The first message is June 10, 2013, from shefoundme to KingOfClubs. Subject: Group buy.
"Hi, I need a few of your highest quality IDs. I notice several attributes you list: hologram UV scannable raised lettering. Can you give me a rundown of the importance of these attributes and what they are needed for? For example, which are needed to pass airport security for a domestic flight? Which are needed to get through being pulled over by a cop? Are any of your IDs suitable for this purpose or are they useful when scrutinized superficially? However you respond, I would like about half a dozen of your best USA IDs and one of the best from each of the international locations (Australia, UK, Canada). Thank you for your assistance, I'll be checking for a reply daily."
June 20, 2013, from KingOfClubs to shefoundme. Subject: Group buy.
"If you are using them for those purposes, I would go for the cards with all the features" -- Sorry, this is June 10, 2013. I think I misread the dates.
"If you are using them for those purposes I would go for the cards with all the features, are you interested in any specific states/provinces? Please narrow it down a bit for me as I offer a lot of different cards, thanks."
June 10, 2013, at 20:53, from shefoundme to KingOfClubs. Subject: Group buy. "You have Illinois, South Carolina, New Jersey, Florida, and Colorado listed as having (Holograms+UV+Scannable), so I'd like one of each of these. Then I'd like the New South Wales ID and the UK ID. For Canada, you have: 1. Quebec Driver's License (Scannable Magstripe1,2,3) 2. Alberta Driver's License (Holo, Raised LTR, Scans) 3. Ontario Driver's License (Raised Lettering, Scans) I guess Alberta is better than Ontario because it has Holo. Is there a difference between "Scans" and "Scannable Magstripe1,2,3"? If there isn't, then I'd like the Alberta ID as well. You also have the following listing: New Texas Drivers License(Raised LTR, Holo, Scans) This is your only US ID with "Raised LTR", but it doesn't have "UV". Can you comment on it's quality compared to the US IDs listed above? Can you comment on the suitability of using any of these IDs to board a domestic USA flight? Can you please comment on what the various attributes mean? For example, does "UV" mean if it is held under a UV light, then some pattern appears that makes it look legit? If it doesn't have "UV" does that mean if it is held under UV light it will be exposed as a fake? In general, how much scrutiny can these cards hold up against? Sorry for all of the questions, but I hope you can spare a moment to inform me."
It continues here on the next page.
June 10, 2013, at 10:12 p.m., from KingOfClubs to shefoundme. Subject: Group buy.
"Alberta doesn't have a magnetic stripe, it has a 2d barcode on the back that is scannable. I provide UV on my DL's for +$50 US if its not included in the listing, the New TX DL is very good and has worked great for my past buyers. I can't say for sure as no past buyer has told me if it has/has not worked for this purpose. If you choose UV (which I suggest), the same UV features that are on the real card will be on yours as well. They can hold up against a high amount of scrutiny, if you have any other questions let me know, Regards."
6/11/2013 at 2:17 a.m., from shefoundme to KingOfClubs. Subject: Group buy.
"Ok, how much for the following: California, New York, Texas, Florida, Colorado, South Carolina, UK, New South Wales, Alberta. All newest and at the highest quality and most security features you can do."
Mr. Evert, can you put this on one side of the screen, please.
Could you publish -- put that on the left side, please. That's fine. On the top is fine.
Can you publish Government Exhibit 402 on the bottom, please, which has already been admitted into evidence.
Mr. Shaw, do you see the picture on the bottom?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I do.
MR. HOWARD: Have you seen this picture before?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I have.
MR. HOWARD: And how do the photographs, the nine IDs depicted in 402, compare to the jurisdictions in the private messages?
BRIAN SHAW: They are a match.
MR. HOWARD: Mr. Evert, can you go back to the message, please.
June 11, 2013, at 2:26 p.m., from shefoundme to KingOfClubs. Subject: Group buy.
"Also, I'd like them to have a motorcycle designation if possible."
6/11/2013, at 2:48 p.m., to KingOfClubs, from shefoundme:
"I can add the motorcycle designation no problem, I can do all those for $1650 US total. If you want me to put up a custom listing for you let me know. Regards."
Then on June 11, 2013, at 3:06 p.m., shefoundme to KingOfClubs: "I'm ready to buy, just send me the link to the custom listing. I'd like them processed, shipped and delivered asap. If you need to tack on a little extra for that, please do."
6/12/2013, at 3:49 p.m., from KingOfClubs to shefoundme:
"Custom for S" and then there is a URL there that includes "silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/silkroad" and more text.
"As soon as you purchase the listing and send the ID forms and pics i'll get started asap. Regards."
Then on June 12th at 10:01 p.m., from shefoundme to KingOfClubs:
"Thank you kindly. There was a delay and I won't have the address for another couple of days it looks like. Sorry about that. I'll go ahead and buy the listing and then send you all the info soon. I just put 'address in pm' in the address box, so I'll message it to you along with everything else."
(Continued on next page)
MR. HOWARD: 6/12/2013 from KingOfClubs to shefoundme at 11:05 p.m. Okay sounds good, looking forward to doing business with you, Regards.
6/16, 11:36 a.m. from shefoundme to KingOfClubs: "Sorry for the continued delay. I am try to arrange an address to have the order sent to. To better help me plan, how long from when I give you the information for the IDs (name, DOB, picture, etc) until you are ready to ship?"
6/17/2013, 8:32 p.m. from shefoundme to KingOfClubs: "I've sent along the info for my order to kingofclubs@tormail.org from shefoundme@tormail.org. I used that so I could attach the photos, but I'd like to continue communicating here please."
6/18/2013, 3:41 a.m. from KingOfClubs to shefoundme: "Okay sounds good, starting on it asap. Regards."
6/21/2013 at 2:57 p.m. from shefoundme to KingOfClubs: 'Begin PGP message," and I will not try to read that part of it.
6/22/2013 at 12:26 a.m. from KingOfClubs to shefoundme: "Okay we'll send there. Providing sample picks in the next couple days, regards."
Then June 22nd, 2013 at 3:16 p.m. from shefoundme to KingOfClubs: "Thanks can you confirm that I put Avenue and not Street? Where will you send the samples? I think I'd rather just have them sent than have pictures of them out on the web. Can you do encrypted.rar over tormail as I did? That would be acceptable I think."
June 25, 2013, 2:35 a.m. from KingOfClubs to shefoundme: "You put Avenue, I'll send the sample pics in a couple days, if you provide your public key i'll encrypt it for you, what's the password for the rar file you provided? I can't find it. Regards."
Skip the next page, please.
June 25, 2013, 5:44 p.m. from KingOfClubs to shefoundme: "Okay. Getting started asap. Regards."
June 28, 2013 at 3:29 a.m. from KingOfClubs to shefoundme: "Done, sample pics."
MR. HOWARD: There's number one, number two, number three number four and under each of them there are two links provided, correct?
BRIAN SHAW: Correct.
MR. HOWARD: I do not require that you finalize early as you have less than ten transactions in your buyer history, as soon as you finalize I'll send it out asap. Regards.
Let's go to the next page, Mr. Evert.
7/29/2013 at 11:13 a.m. from shefoundme to KingOfClubs: "Okay I have finalized. Please let me know when it has shipped and when to expect it."
7/1/2013 at 9:40 p.m. shefoundme to KingOfClubs: "Any idea when this will ship out?"
7/1/2013 from KingOfClubs to shefoundme: "Sent, will be arriving midnext week, regards."
7/11/2013, 6:42 p.m. from shefoundme to KingOfClubs: "The order did not arrive in today's mail. When did it go out."
7/12/2013, 1:52 a.m. from KingOfClubs to shefoundme: "It went out over the weekend, should be arriving any day now. Regards."
7/17/2013 at 2:38 p.m. from shefoundme to KingOfClubs: "Week and-a-half and still nothing. I paid nearly $30 for express shipping. Did you send it express? What is the tracking #?"
KingOfClubs: "Tracking number EG014226242 CA, track at USPS.com regards."
KingOfClubs: "Yes it was sent Express."
Shefoundme on 7/18: "Looks like it got stuck in customs. The last step is "inbound out of customs" on the 10th. Have you ever had something seized or any of your customers get in trouble?"
7/20/2013 from KingOfClubs: "Seizures rarely happen, maybe twice in 2 years. You will not get in trouble for this if it is seized, in the worst case scenario they may send a letter to you saying they have it and that if you want to come pick it up you can. DO NOT go pick it up, obviously, if this happens, remember that anyone can send anyone anything. I can get them redone for you but it will take about a week and I would need to sent it to another address, interested?"
7/21 from shefoundme: "Let's give this a little more time to see if they come through. If not I'll hit you up for another batch. Thank you for your help."
Finally, 7/21 KingOfClubs: "Okay sounds good. Regards."
MR. HOWARD: Mr. Shaw, could you please turn in your binder to what's been marked as Government Exhibit 936.
BRIAN SHAW: Okay.
MR. HOWARD: Do you recognize what this is?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I do.
MR. HOWARD: And what is this?
BRIAN SHAW: It is a list of selected messages to and from the user account Dread Pirate Roberts.
MR. HOWARD: And did you also participate in the preparation of this exhibit?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I did.
MR. HOWARD: Did you confirm that all of the messages depicted in this exhibit truly and accurately reflect information from the databases located on the servers?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, I did.
MR. HOWARD: The government offers Government Exhibit 936.
MR. DRATEL: A number of hearsay Vayner, 403 previous objections.
THE COURT: All right. Those objections are overruled for the previous reasons and this exhibit is received.
MR. HOWARD: Mr. Evert, can you please publish 936 and can I have a bottle of water, please.
MR. HOWARD: Mr. Shaw, can you please explain what is depicted here?
BRIAN SHAW: Sure. This is a compilation of messages sent to and from the user account Dread Pirate Roberts with one exception that we'll talk about in a minute. The way that it is laid out is there is a column here that will tell you who the message is from or who the message is sent to. And implied in all of these, again with one exception, is the other participant is the user account Dread Pirate Roberts.
MR. HOWARD: So Mr. Evert, could you zoom in on the top two lines for a second.
MR. HOWARD: For example, the first row in the to from column it says "from FriendlyChemist," what does that mean?
BRIAN SHAW: That means this message was sent from the account FriendlyChemist to the account Dread Pirate Roberts.
MR. HOWARD: And on the next line it says "to FriendlyChemist." What does that mean?
BRIAN SHAW: That means it was a message sent from the Dread Pirate Roberts to the FriendlyChemist.
MR. HOWARD: Zoom out. Could we go forward to page eight, please.
MR. HOWARD: So what is this message right here, can you zoom into that location?
BRIAN SHAW: This is the one exception I was referring to. This is actually from a forum post posted to -- it was from a backup copy from the web forum associated with the Silk Road Marketplace so this was available for others to read. It was not a one-to-one message.
MR. HOWARD: And are there other messages that are marked in blue?
BRIAN SHAW: There are other messages marked in blue, yes.
MR. HOWARD: What do those indicate?
BRIAN SHAW: Anything marked in blue indicates that it came from the backup of the forum, the web forum; however, all of the other messages are still one-to-one between the user account and the Dread Pirate Roberts.
MR. HOWARD: By one-to-one, do you mean private messages to and from Dread Pirate Roberts?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, the forum supported private messages also.
MR. HOWARD: Let's go to the first page, please.
March 13, 2013 from FriendlyChemist: "Can u please get dread pirate roberts to message me RIGHT away ? its very serious... a matter of life and death. also has to do with the identities of a dozen top vendors and thousands of silk road customers its very important so please get him me right away. i will not talk to anyone but dread pirate roberts so please do not ask me what it is conserning."
From Dread Pirate Roberts to FriendlyChemist, March 14: "What can I do for you."
March 14, 2013 from FriendlyChemist to Dread Pirate Roberts: "What is going on? when are u payin lucydrop? i have been waiting and waiting and he keeps saying hes waitin for u to pay u dont know me but i am lucydrops supplier. the only reason i lent lucydrop so much product is bcuz he showed me the chat logs of u and him talking and how u made him the #1 seller on silkroad. i lent him 900k of product and he paid me 200k and then started avoiding me. i see u and him still have listings up when i kno for a fact he does not have ne product. why are u guys scamming people for there hard earned money? i stopped by lucydrops house and he doesnt live there ne more and his phone goes straight to voicemail but i kno he has been on sr.. and he says wait for u what is the deal? where is my money? why is lucydrop still selling when i kno for fact he has no product because i supplyd him im freaking out here! that was not my money! im getting scared. my wife said she saw people at my kids school and im getting really worried i put a keylogger on lucydrops computer when he left the room one day when i was their so i could see what he was doing and i see he has been selling still when i kno he doesnt have product. are u guys pulling a scam? why!? i also have the indentities of 9 top vendors and 15 smaller vendors and thousands of customers of lucydrops. i dont want any trouble but i want my money! if u havnt paid lucydrop drop pay him! if u have pay him then tell him to pay me! im scared for my family! if u dont believe me here is lucy password info login lucydrop passyworld lucedad withdraw password lucedadhi5. i will not do anything tilll u message me and tell me whats going on. please get him to pay me asap or pay him asap if u havnt! this is my life here and im scared for my family bcuz of the money i owe"
From Dread Pirate Roberts to FriendlyChemist: "I'm really sorry for your situation. I've never had such a conversation with Lucydrop. He/she must have made it up to trick you. We have no special deal whatsoever."
From FriendlyChemist to Dread Pirate Roberts: "I find it verry hard to believe. he showed the chat loggs talking to u about u making him number 1 seller and being his partner on the product i gave him. i would not have give him that much product otherwise- especially because u made him the 1 seller please dont screw me like this! my life is in danger because of this money i owe! i also kno about the other vendor accounts his friends are using. i have access to those customer lists too from when lucydrop was dropshipping for them im not this kind of person but the only card i hav left to play is dropping 2 dozen vendor identities and thousands of customer details on the web and the forums. what do u and lucydrop think will happen if thousands of usernames, ordr amounts, addresses get leaked? all those people will leave sr and be scared to use it again.. those vendors will all be busted and all there customers will be exposed too and never go back to sr i dont want to do that! i just want my money for my product! my life is in danger and maybe my family. the people i borrowed that from are not regular people!! i cant believe i was so stupid and trustng! jus get lucydrop to pay me my money asap or if u havent paid him yet then pay so he pays me the money he owes! please! im freaking out here!"
March 15, 2013 from Dread Pirate Roberts to FriendlyChemist: "I will get in touch with Lucydrop and get back to you. Send me all the information you've harvested so I can verify it." From Dread Pirate Roberts to Lucydrop, subject FriendlyChemist: "Hi Lucydrop. I've been contacted by a member named FriendlyChemist. He claims to know you and have done business with you in real life. He is making wild accusation and threats against you me and other members of the community. If indeed you know him, could you please provide me with his name and address. I'd like to stop him in his tracks by revealing that I know who he is and will retaliate if he does anything stupid. Any other info you can provide is also welcome. Thanks and sorry for the trouble. DPR. PS-please don't contact him if possible, I'd like to handle it myself."
From FriendlyChemist to Dread Pirate Roberts: "I didnt have to harvest anything - lucydrop kept a log of every single transaction he made on silkroad like a idiot there r thousands and thousands of orders there are over 20 vendor identities from when he did biz with them - some with phone numbers to - and over 5 thousand customer identities he also ran more then 1 account on here nd seems to be still vending on those accts too and did evrything from 1 computers so i have all theyre info too u alrdy kno that i have access to his acct and u can see most of his order r not encrypt so i dont kno why u are asking for me to send all the info to u now. unless u want to warn all those people so you and lucy dont have to pay me his username - lucydrop his pw - lucedad his wd pw - lucedadhi5 u say u are not working wit him but u still havn closed his acct when u kno he is scamming but i will give u a address to some customers and u can see he kept logs the whole time. Here are some of his very first sales when he was sending 3tab samples when he first started vending. u can cantact them and see it is true. 3tabs Elwin B, Wellington New Zealand three tabs, Michael S; Beverly Hill, Happy Valley, Hong Kong six tabs; Mayan R Tel-Aviv 63457, Israel, six tabs, Amir N; Technion 32000, Haifa Israel three tabs; Mr. N JB, NS W-2 234 Australia, three tabs, Abraham S."
And let's go to the next message: Zoom in on the bottom.
"And the log goes like that up til today every day. nd that it just 1 of his accts.. he has 3 total of his own he use for different thing But im sure u kno this. or else why u let that accunt stay open. I dont want to do anything with this and i wont i just want my money! i am scared for my life and you and him are not giving me answer. maybe if i post all the vendor identity publicly and nobody sell on silkroad lucydrop will have no more sales to scam ppl on his other account. i just want what is owe to me and i will go away! i dont kno why you ppl scam like this! ppl work hard for there money and u are playing with ppl lives! I will wait ur reply from lucydrop - but i dont kno how much longer i can wait.. how can i explain to these ppl i dont have there money when i said i will have it a certain day and now im late? these are not normal ppl and they are getting angry with me Jsut get lucydrop to resolve this, or pay him so he can pay me! i did a favor and this is not fair to play with my life like this!"
From Dread Pirate Roberts to FriendlyChemist: "I'll let you know when I hear from Lucydrop."
From FriendlyChemist to Dread Pirate Roberts: "When will that be? i dont think u guys understand how serious this is have u not payed lucydrop the 700k he is supposed to give me yet? these people i borrowed from have been asking for me to meet them and said they dont want to have to come and find me im scared and u dont seem to even care that u guys are scamming me and putting me life in danger! do i need to release some of list so u take it more serious? i just want what is owed to me! when will u guys make it rite?" March 16, 2013, forum post by RealLucyDrop, title "IMPORTANT, please post this thread in the rumor mill - I am the RealLucyDrop. I can't post in rumormill because I don't have 50 posts. Please post this thread in rumormill for me DO NOT BUY FROM LUCYDROP ON SR I can't talk about specifics for security reasons, but i was in jail for more than 2 months but less than 7. I got released very recently. LucyDrop on SilkRoad is NOT ME. DO NOT BUY FROM THAT ACCOUNT. My partner completely fucked me over. I went to our spot.. there is nothing there and he wont answer my phone calls. He took the work computer and everything else. He took my entire savings with him that was being used to keep supply up. He took my entire life. Somebody PLEASE get in contact with DPR or Vendor Support and have the account shut down immediately and freeze all the funds in the account. How can I contact DPR? I can't find a link to message him. I can prove to him that I am the real lucydrop as I do not have access to my pgp or any of my logins. If you ordered from me in the past (namely a couple of top vendors, i can give you details and you can verify/vouch that I am indeed the real LucyDrop) Do not trust anything that is said from that LucyDrop account! Do not send ANY FUNDS. Do NOT FINALIZE ANYTHING."
"Somebody please get DPR to see this thread. Someone please post this in Rumor mill. My entire life was taken from me and I don't know what to do."
March 16, 2013 from Dread Pirate Roberts to RealLucyDrop: "Hi there. How did the new person gain access to your account"?
From RealLucyDrop to Dread Pirate Roberts: "It's not a new person who took over the account. It was my partner in real life that I started Lucydrop with. I was the one that actually handled the Lucydrop account until I got arrested. I was picked up on previous drug offense warrants and spent some time in jail. My partner took absolutely everything from me in that time. He took all the work computers, the bitcoin wallets, all the work product and nearly my entire life savings and scammed a bunch of people in the process."
"FriendlyChemist was our middleman to one of our LSD distributers. I called him also after I got released and he is demanding I pay him for some deal he had with my partner when I was in jail and telling me he will do something very stupid if he doesn't get paid. How do you know FriendlyChemist?"
March 17, 2013 from Dread Pirate Roberts to RealLucyDrop: "I'm so glad you know him! He has gathered the personal information of many of the customers who worked with LucyDrop (not sure if you were in control of the account at the time or not) and also some of the vendors on SR. Now he's trying to blackmail me by saying he will release all of this info. If this happened it will be terrible. I need his real world identity so I can threaten him with violence if he were to release any names (name, address, anything you have.) It sound like he's in a tough spot that your former partner put him in, but I can't get involved and I can't let him release those IDs. Thank you for any help you can provide."
From RealLucyDrop to Dread Pirate Roberts: "I don't know how I feel about that solution. Remember that he also knows my real world identity and has evidence on me as well. I'm sure you are well aware of what would happen to me if my information was to be released. If he had access to that computer there is a lot more damaging stuff on there than just the identities of a bunch of vendors and a bunch of customers of mine. There is enough on that computer to put me away for a very long time. He's acting erratic now (understandably, given his situation), but I will set up a meeting with him and try to reason with him. It is also in my best interest that he does not release anything as well as in the best interest of this movement we are a part of..putting power in the peoples hands. I fucking hate what money does to people. I am in contact with him, and I told him that I am talking to you and I'm going to have a meeting with him and try to resolve this problem of ours."
March 18, 2013, from Dread Pirate Roberts to RealLucyDrop: "Okay. Lucy, do me proud." Emoticon. From RealLucyDrop to Dread Pirate Roberts: "Will do. Obviously I won't ask you what timezone you are in, but can you give me certain hours that are the best to reach you at? The delay in messages back and forth make it hard to communicate effectively. I'm in the Pacific time zone.. Can you tell me what time in PST are the best times to reach you at? I don't mind having to wake up in the middle of the night to hop on the forums so just tell me whatever works best for you. I will be meeting him today in the morning."
From Dread Pirate Roberts to RealLucyDrop: "I will check in as much as possible. Let me know if you need anything."
March 19, 2013 from RealLucyDrop to Dread Pirate Roberts: "I went to the meeting with him and he is extremely frightened. He told me who he owes money to and I understand his concern for his safety, because they are not people you want to owe money to. He is freaking out and truly believes that his life and his families life is in serious danger. He thinks that you don't take him seriously and said he was planning on releasing part of the information to show he is serious. I convinced him not to and reassured him that things would be okay. If that information gets leaked and those vendors get busted, I would get busted too. I tried to not show him that I was too concerned with his threats but I'm not sure how to deal with him. He said he has been doing his research and he says he has discovered the flaw with SR that the buyers have never thought about (I'm assuming he is referring to the fact the vendors all have peoples addresses and you can use it against SR or the buyers themselves to extort money or what have you). He also kept talking about the shitstorm that would be caused by that much information being leaked and media/police picking up on it and starting a mass panic. He said if we don't pay him that he will release the information, and if that does not work he will go straight to the police with all the information and get into the witness protection program. The people he borrowed the product from are a big criminal organization in Canada (Hells Angels-not sure if you are familiar with them) and the police have been known to treat witnesses against them very well."
"This is saddening because this guy is really not like this, but I guess with the threat to his and his families life he is under extreme stress and acting out of character. I calmed him down a bit and told him I would find a way to help him. That was somewhat of a lie on my part because I really don't know how I can help him but I wanted to reassure him so he didn't do anything drastic in the meantime until we find a solution."
"I asked him that you would never fully trust him to not use the information against him even if you got paid and he said the following. I'm recalling this all from memory so excuse me if it's not completely accurate."
"He said regardless of anything, he needs to pay the people asap or he's he is in grave danger. He offered me a deal because as you know selling on SR was my income and he was my connection for LSD. He said he wants to be paid and that he would then give me product at his cost, so I could pay you back by selling and giving you the percentage of what he would normally put on top when he was selling it to me. He was putting 50 percent on top of his cost when he gave it to me, so he suggested I start vending again and you take 50 percent of all sales. That way you would be paid back in full, I would be able to sell again on SR and that people he borrowed the product from would be paid back and he would be safe. I said that was a bad deal because you still have all the vendors information and customers information. He said that he would be willing to give you his identity, talk to someone on the phone to verify, or give any other identifying information that could be confirmed as collateral so he would never be able to use that information again, and that you would feel confident that the information would never be exposed."
"I don't know what you think, but that is what he said to me. What should I say to him." March 20, 2013 from RealLucyDrop to Dread Pirate Roberts. The subject this guy is calling me nonstop: "Can you tell me what to tell him, please? I've been stalling him and told him I would get back to him ASAP. Can you just tell me what to tell him so I can make arrangements protect myself in this situation also if he goes through with this threat, I will need to protect myself."
From Dread Pirate Roberts to RealLucyDrop: "You know his real-world identity don't you? There is no way I will be handing cash over to a person who is threatening me and my community. Give me his ID so I can have some leverage in dealing with them. You said you don't know what to do now, so let me take over and give me all the info you have so I have the best chance at defusing this situation."
From RealLucyDrop to Dread Pirate Roberts: "Yes, I do know his identity, but you threatening him back will not help this situation. He is deathly afraid of the people he owes money to and they already know where he lives and where his kids go to school etc. That will just expedite him going to the police, thus the information being given to them including my identity because they police will want all the information he has if they will protect him and put him in witness protection. Obviously you don't want to be blackmailed and let some fuck take money but this situation is extremely sensitive and I'm getting increasingly worried about my own safety regarding the police or my information being leaked too."
"If I can get some money together would you be willing to help me pay him and then taking 50 percent off of each of my sales to repay you what you have lent? I was the number one vendor with three best selling items on SR so it would not take long. That way I also get to keep my connection for LSD and be able to keep vending. I can probably get 300K together or maybe more if I try to borrow some money from friends. I just don't see how you threatening him is going to help the situation at all and will probably just make him go to the police even faster/releasing the information faster since he will know he will not be able to pay them off and will have no choice but to go to the police after releasing the information since he will be in serious trouble."
"Please try and check your messages more often, because whenever I don't have anything to tell him he starts acting more erratic since the people he owes are on him hard about getting paid."
From Dread Pirate Roberts to RealLucyDrop: "Don't bother messaging me again if the message doesn't contain his personal information. I'm not fronting money to anyone and I won't be blackmailed. I would also like the contact info/ID of the other Lucydrop that ripped him off and of his suppliers if possible. You don't know how to handle this situation, but I do. Stop showing this guy compassion. He is threatening our life/freedom and my livelyhood."
March 21, 2013 from RealLucyDrop to Dread Pirate Roberts: "If you really think that you have a good idea to deal with him, I will give you the information you want about his identity. Please understand why I'm hesitant as it is my freedom we're dealing with."
"I will have no income since he was my connection for LSD. Are there any positions open on SR? Support or otherwise? I could really use some sort of job as my partner completely fucked me over."
"Let me know how to send the information to you..plain text or you can give me a PGP key to use."
From Dread Pirate Roberts to FriendlyChemist re, Very important: "Have your suppliers contact me here so I can work out something with them. Do not tell them I owe you money. That is not true and will only complicate matters. Tell them the truth, the person who stole your money sold their product on my site and that you are now blackmailing me to get them their money. You should copy/paste this message to them."
March 21 from Dread Pirate Roberts to RealLucyDrop: "Thank you for your understanding. Please encrypt the information with the key below and send it to me here."
Go to the next page.
"Hate to even ask this but any job operation? I've always been loyal to you and believe in the movement. I was the number one vendor with the number one selling products so I am I am very familiar with how things work..I just am in a bad spot after my partner fucked me and could use any sort of income while I get back on my feet." March 21, 2013 from Dread Pirate Roberts to RealLucyDrop: "Please send the exact address of FC. I might be able to take you in as a part-time mod. I'll run it by the staff."
March 24, 2013 from RealLucyDrop to Dread Pirate Roberts: "That's not a problem. I will go out there in a couple days and get the exact address for you. Did you consult the staff about the part-time job."
March 25, 2013 from Dread Pirate Roberts to RealLucyDrop: "Not yet. Is he still in contact with you?"
March 25, 2013 from redandwhite to Dread Pirate Roberts subject FriendlyChemist: "I was asked to contact you. We are the people FriendlyChemist owes money to. He tells us that you owe him money and a long boring story about some of this and some of that. As far as we are concerned-we gave him the product. Where it went and how it does not matter. We hold him and him only responsible for the missing product/money. We don't care if you stole it from him/borrowed it from him or anything. It was his responsibility to pay for it. He asked me to contact you anyways. What would you like to talk to us about?"
3/26/2013 from RealLucyDrop to Dread Pirate Roberts: "He answers though sporadically...I have heard via the grapevine that he is in contact with the people he owes money to but he is refusing to meet up with them like they have told him to."
March 26, 2013 from Dread Pirate Roberts to redandwhite: "Sorry for the delayed response and thank you for getting in touch. We've had some technical difficulties in the past 24 hours I've had to deal with. Just to be clear, I do not owe him any money but he has told me his situation and wants my help. I'm not entirely sure what the best action to take is, but I want to be in communication with you to see if we can come to a conclusion that works for everyone."
"FriendlyChemist aside, we should talk about how we can do business. Obviously you have access to illicit substances in quantity and are having issues with bad distributers. If you don't already sell here on Silk Road I'd like you to consider becoming a vendor. Many people here purchase in bulk as well as retail quantities. Being a vendor, you'll have the protection that dealing anonymously in bitcoin provides, and you'll have protection against people like FriendlyChemist ripping you off because all the transactions are conducted through my escrow. I encourage you to read the Wiki and forum (links in the footer) and consider becoming a vendor here."
"So if there is anything I can do as the admin here to help you get involved in Silk Road, or anything I can do to help with your situation with friendlychemist, please just let me know. DPR."
March 26, 2013 from redandwhite to Dread Pirate Roberts: "That is interesting. How much is it possible to sell on here if we listed every product far cheaper than everyone else? We have a majority hold over most of the movement of products in western Canada, one of the main drug ports in North America. I have researched your site and the concept seems interesting to me (as long as it is as anonymous as everyone makes it out t to be) We produce LSD/nBome/Ketamine/MDMA/Meth/GHB and import cocaine and heroin in massive bulk amounts. We have a lot of workers who run their own sub distribution networks for the streets, but if it is lucrative we are always looking to expand."
"In my partners eyes all they will see is that because of online dealing we are out out 700k so I'm not sure they will go for it. FriendlyChemist refuses to meet up with us because of what he fears will happen. People are starting to suspect that he will go to the police, which is not a problem because he would never be able to give up anyone of importance since he only has ever had contact with low level people in our group and they always take precautions so that even if someone were to turn informant, they would not be able to get any charges to stick. It's a shame because he moved a fair amount of product. If you can get FriendlyChemist to meet up with us, or pay us his debt then I'm sure I would be able to get people in our group to give this online side of the business a try. As it stands right now, there are people looking for him and since he has avoided our group, I'm not sure what will happen since he owes us money and is avoiding us. I've looked around your site, and the prices are absolutely absurd. I'm assuming most people on here selling are three or four tiers before the actual producers or distributers?" From Dread Pirate Roberts to RealLucyDrop on March 27, 2013: "Why haven't you gotten the address yet. Bring me the address and $1,000 in BTC is yours."
March 27, 2013 from Dread Pirate Roberts to read and white re FriendlyChemist: "In my eyes FriendlyChemist is a liability and I wouldn't mind if he was executed but then you'd be out your 700K. I don't think he is going to come up with the money because he seems very desperate. I'm not sure how much you already know about the guy, but I have the following info and am waiting on getting his address.
"Blake Krokoff off lives in an apartment near White Rock Beach, age 34, City of White Rock, Province, British Columbia, wife plus three kids. Let me know if it would be helpful to have his full address.
"Let me know if it would be helpful to have his full address. In those categories, I think you could be doing over $1M in sales a week within a few months. It is hard to estimate because it depends on how much market share you get and also the site as a whole is constantly growing. You will need to become very proficient at stealth shipping and packaging if you aren't already. Think vacuum sealers and leaving no forensic evidence on your packages. You will also want to ship from multiple drop points so you can't be traced back via your (fake) return address. If you go through with this, I would contact some of the top vendors and hire them to consult you. Ask the weed vendors because you won't be competing with them and their product is smelly and looked for by USPS, so they have to be on top of their game. I would also start out listing smaller amounts so you can get the hang of it before putting up a substantial inventory. You will also need to market yourself on the forums a little bit at first, maybe send out some samples to critics. That is one price of anonymity, no one knows you, but if your customer service is good and your product is good and cheap people will quickly catch on and you won't have to do much hustling.
"Regarding prices, there are some costs here you don't otherwise see. I take three to ten percent depending on the sides of the transaction. If you hedge your escrow balance) and you should (that can cost up to five percent per transaction and then if you need to convert your bitcoins into another currency there are fees associated with that, though not that much. There are only occasional losses due to packages lost in the mail. The rest of the markup is due I think as you say to the fact that most vendors are pretty far down the distribution chain.
"Regarding the safety and anonymity, we've been operating for over two years now in the open as a high profile target and are still going strong. If you take the necessary precautions and use technology I think you can operate very securely and efficiently here, maybe more so than some of your current operations."
THE COURT: Mr. Howard, I think we're going to need to stop there.
MR. HOWARD: Can I show one exhibit with this last message and we can stop.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. HOWARD: Can we go over to the last page, please, the previous page. Can you zoom in where it starts Blake, where the name is through the next line. Can you move that to the top of the screen. Can you please publish Government Exhibit 275E on the bottom of the screen, which has already been admitted into evidence. It's a file that's been recovered from the defendant's computer.
THE COURT: What are you turning us to?
MR. HOWARD: It's the log file.
THE COURT: 275D?
MR. HOWARD: 275. The E was a typo in my notes. 275 on the bottom, Mr. Evert.
MR. HOWARD: Mr. Shaw, does that information match?
BRIAN SHAW: Yes, it does.
MR. HOWARD: Could we go to the metadata on that file, the 275, the last page and zoom in on the bottom left-hand corner and give me the full top name. "home/frosty/backup/reference/by me/ops.txt."
This would be a good time to stop.
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to end for the day. We're going to pick up on Monday, but I want to let you know that if -- it's very likely that we're going to be sitting on Friday next week so you should make sure -- we haven't been sitting on Fridays so far, but I said that if there was a possibility that you'd be in the midst of deliberations, I would have you continue to sit on Friday. This is from way back during jury selection. So just bear that in mind.
We'll see how things progress and I'll try to give you some updates, but I just wanted to give you some advance notice so that you have your calendars appropriately organized.
Now, I want to remind you for this weekend, again, you've heard an awful lot of evidence. There's more to come. And you've been here for a while. So I know my voice is probably becoming sort of -- it gets like a lull. But I really do want to make sure that you folks know how important it is that you don't talk to anybody, including each other about this case. You avoid all media relating to this case and you don't try to go off and start searching any of the websites that you hear about. You hear about an awful lot. You're probably yourself on the computers a lot. You need to not engage in any temptation to run a few searches yourself, don't do that all right.
I hope you have a terrific weekend and we'll see you Monday morning the usual time. We'll start at 9:30. Thank you.
(Jury excused)
THE COURT: Sir, you may step down. You should be in your chair at 9:30. Thank you.
BRIAN SHAW: Thanks.
(Witness temporarily excused)
(Continued on next page)
(In open court; jury not present)
THE COURT: Let's all be seated, ladies and gentlemen. It's Thursday afternoon. Give me a sense, Mr. Howard, so we can figure out when the defense case is going to start, when approximately you're going to end with this witness. And mr. Dratel will have a sense as to how long he might take.
MR. HOWARD: This is the last lengthy portion ready reading. I think there are another couple Tor chats. There's not much more after this very long piece. I would guess an hour and-a-half to two hours max.
THE COURT: So if we start anywhere in the vicinity of 9:30 on Monday, hope springs eternal, then that would be 11:30-ish.
MR. HOWARD: I think that's right. I think we're definitely going to finish before lunch.
THE COURT: Then Mr. Dratel will have whatever cross he's going to have. How much does the government have after that in terms of stipulations or anything else that you'll need to do, if anything?
MR. HOWARD: I think there's a very few things that we'd want to read into the record.
THE COURT: Ten minutes, five minutes, 20 minutes.
MR. HOWARD: Five to ten minutes max.
THE COURT: Mr. Dratel and Ms. Lewis, we're likely to get to your case then Monday after -- in fact, it sounds like we will get to your case Monday after lunch-ish. In that regard, we'll need to talk about the logistics of when you're going to give the notice if you're -- if Mr. Ulbricht is going to testify. One of the options is if he's going to testify and the other folks I realize are not going to be in town, then obviously he could since he's sitting here, he can testify then. That's one possibility.
But I think it would be fair to give the government some notice of that at some point prior to that, but that's an option in terms of getting your folks here. Otherwise, I don't know how -- if your expert is local, let me hear from you, Mr. Dratel.
MR. DRATEL: We'll coordinate so we'll be ready to go at that point on Monday. I mean, if obviously we'll have as many people here as we need to. People are booking their travel. That's what we're trying to do.
THE COURT: When will you have an answer on whether Mr. Ulbricht will testify?
MR. DRATEL: I don't know.
THE COURT: Is it possible over the weekend?
MR. DRATEL: It's possible, but I don't know. You know, he gets the right to make that decision; even if he told me today, he gets the right to change his mind.
THE COURT: I certainly understand that. It's also the case that the Court is entitled to ensure that we have an orderly trial and that he makes a decision in a reasonable time. There are many judges who would have required it before now. It's not my style to require for the defense that they say it one way or the other for sure before the end of the government's case. However, if you're leaning one way or the other, then it's fair to get notice because he would be a substantial witness to prepare for cross-examination for.
MR. DRATEL: I assume that they would be prepared for him no matter what because this has been going on for a long time. So I can't make him decide it before he is ready to decide it.
THE COURT: What I'm saying is, first of all, and I'll be clear to Mr. Ulbricht because I can see him and we see each other all day long, and you need to decide by the end of the government's case and convey that to Mr. Dratel in consultation with Mr. Dratel and after -- when the government rests, at that point, we're into the defense case and we need to know.
So, if you folks have decided that earlier, then I ask you to notify me and the government that you have made a determination one way or the other. If that occurs, tomorrow, tonight, over the weekend, if you haven't, so be it. We'll break at the end of the government's case and I'll ask you then but it will also give me a sense in terms of timing, it will give me a pretty much better sense than I have right now to how long the case will last.
MR. DRATEL: I object for this reason. He has a right to see -- he has a right to determine after the defense witnesses testify whether he likes it or not, whether he thinks he should testify.
THE COURT: You can look at the case law on that. There's ample case law on precisely this issue. I'm sure you're aware of it.
Now, let's talk about closings. It is my practice always to go directly into closings. There will not be an overnight if there's time left in the day unless there's not enough file to get to a closing.
Let's take an example. If, for example, the defense case is over by 11:00 a.m. on Tuesday or 2:00 p.m. on Tuesday, you will do your closings on Tuesday. So you should prepare for closings shortly thereafter. If it's Wednesday, it will be Wednesday. If it's Thursday, it will be Thursday. If it's the following week because the case is still going and we're not in deliberations in which case I will not make the jury sit on Friday, but just bear that in mind because sometimes people get an overnight. You might, if we end at 3:00 one day or 3:30 and it seems like a logical thing to do, but you may not.
Now, the last item I have is for jury instructions. For jury instructions, we got through all but the last couple and I've got some decisions to make and you folks have letters that you were going to send me if you wanted to on any remaining issues.
I'll take those tomorrow any time during the day tomorrow any additional last comments; otherwise, my intention is to finalize them and to send you folks another draft and we'll then talk about -- I'll go through with you on Monday morning or I'll issue something written shortly thereafter which gives you the results of my determinations, but I know I'm waiting for a couple of things from Mr. Dratel in particular.
MR. DRATEL: And also a defense theory which we will have at the appropriate time.
THE COURT: Obviously, if you have an instruction to add that corresponds with the evidence, but what we're going to be doing, we'll need to get that, but I will instruct the jury as soon as you rest because it's possible that if, for instance -- I have to be prepared to. If, for instance, it's 3:00 in the afternoon, I want to play out the timing, and we're not going to close because it's too late in the day to get you both in, then I may give at least give some of the instructions at the close of all evidence. So I want to make sure that I have it if you want something built in early on.
MR. DRATEL: We would have that Monday. It's just when the government rests.
THE COURT: Terrific.
MR. DRATEL: It's purely just not to have a defense theory and then respond to while they still have their case.
THE COURT: That's fine. That's fine. And if there's anything else that has gotten modified as we have gone along, because of the evidence that comes in obviously, we said that we would revisit that and we will.
Are there things which you folks would like to address apart from that?
MR. TURNER: There are several, your Honor. First of all, in terms of defense 3500 in the exhibits, we'd like to get a sense -- we'd like to set a deadline for that. We have consulted with defense counsel and defense counsel has told us they will try to give us that information tomorrow. I would just like for some date to be set on the record.
THE COURT: When is the last that you need it by given your resources which are greater than the defense's?
MR. TURNER: Well, we would like it, since we're going to start with the defense case on Monday, I think we'd like it at least by Saturday morning, 48 hours.
THE COURT: Why don't we split these into two groups. There are, as I understand it, I don't know if the composition has changed, but there is the expert witness and then there are the somewhere, half a dozen to seven or so character witnesses.
As I understand it, Ms. Lewis, those are the two groups that you described yesterday?
MS. LEWIS: That's correct.
THE COURT: Is it easier to get one set versus the other at one point in time and let me get a sense from the defense as to what you folks are thinking.
MR. DRATEL: 3500 we were planning on getting to the government probably by tomorrow evening I think is viable. Exhibits is a little different for a couple of reasons: One of which is the government is still on its case. Everything we turn over to the government becomes part of their case, so I'm really not inclined to start giving them exhibits so that they can then call another witness or do something else with it or have this witness talk about it if it's something from there.
We'll give them the exhibits as soon as they rest and they're not going to be voluminous. It's all stuff they're familiar with. This is all stuff from the discovery for the post part. If it's not, if it's stuff having to do with an expert, we'll get that so that everybody has notice. We have been getting exhibits every morning, every night.
THE COURT: On the 3500 material, Friday evening is fine. And we'll just make it at any point in time on Friday since the government said Saturday morning for the 3500 material.
MR. DRATEL: All right.
THE COURT: So get it to the government how ever logistically you folks arrange that.
In terms of the exhibits, when you say "not voluminous," again can you split them between the two groups? Are these really for the expert or are they other? Are they for the seven?
MR. DRATEL: I don't think the character/fact witnesses have exhibits necessarily. Maybe one, maybe a couple of things -- it's possible one or two pieces.
THE COURT: In terms of the expert, I take it that you have to have given the proper disclosure in any event to the government and that's all done.
MR. DRATEL: Yes. We have one expert that we're going to disclose probably later tonight based on what happened today.
MR. TURNER: On the expert, we're actually going to move to preclude. We don't believe the notice is sufficient.
THE COURT: Preview for me, is it because you don't think the notice is sufficiently detailed or for some other reason?
MR. TURNER: Three reasons: We don't think that the subject matters of the testimony requires specialized knowledge, we don't think they're relevant to the case and in any event, the expert disclosure does not even provide the opinions that this expert is going to provide. It just lists subject matters, very general topics of discussion and there's very clear law it's not sufficient under Rule 16, so we prepared a submission. We were going to file it with the Court shortly after we get back.
THE COURT: I'll wait to see it. And that will increase the workload of the defense in terms of needing to respond to it because I'll need to rule on that very quickly on Monday morning. It will be an initial order of business at 9:00 a.m. So let me see when yours comes in. And if you can confer with the defense as to timing on when they can respond and recite that, that would be helpful. If you can't, then Mr. Dratel, if you can let me, as soon as it's filed, have a sense Tuesday the soonest you can get it.
MR. DRATEL: Yes.
THE COURT: Because I don't want to give you a deadline --
MR. DRATEL: Understand. I understand.
THE COURT: But I'd like to be able to read both. What's the topic of the expert?
MR. DRATEL: Bitcoin. And the other expert is the Computers, these computer issues.
THE COURT: Let's deal with these as they come in. I take the heads-up Mr. Turner now. Now, in terms of numbers of -- in terms of exhibits, let's assume for the moment because I want to work on the logistics as well and I just don't know how any of this is going to come out: When is the time frame that you need the exhibits by?
MR. TURNER: I think any expert witness we would need them sooner rather than later. The fact witnesses, the character witnesses are less of a concern.
I would add this is extremely late for disclosure of another expert witness so we would hope that that disclosure is made very promptly.
THE COURT: Well, if it's coming out of today with Mr. Yum in terms of his analysis, that's one thing and we'll deal with it when we see what the notice is; and you folks, if you've got an issue, you'll raise the issue and the defense will respond.
MR. TURNER: I was speaking of the second expert, the computer issues expert.
THE COURT: He said it was coming out of --
MR. DRATEL: I'm sorry. I may have misspoke. It is coming out of a series of witnesses, some of whom testified I think as late as yesterday, but it also has to do with some of the limitations on cross that have occurred in the last couple of days. So you say we have to call a witness, we'll call a witness.
THE COURT: Well, I said we would take up the application if you're going to call a witness. So if you need to call a witness and you're going to attempt it, it doesn't mean you get around the Rule 16 disclosure requirement. So you'll work with the government, make your disclosures. If the government has a problem with it, they'll raise it with me and we'll take it from there, all right?
MR. DRATEL: Just so we're clear: Again, every day we get new exhibits. It is not something that's out of the realm of a trial. They're going to get something in sufficient time to work with it much more time than we have had to work with much of what they have done.
THE COURT: I hear your frustration and your point.
MR. DRATEL: Thank you.
THE COURT: And we'll take it one step at a time. What I'd like to do right now is the 3500 material is going to go over. Let me get a sense of what this expert is about. And you folks talk about whether or not you can get some timing. I mean, if plenty of time means you're not going to get the exhibits to them before the fellow or woman -- I don't know who it is -- testifies, the expert, that's one thing. That's one set of issues. If it's going to be Sunday at midday, that's something else. I just need to have a sense. Let me let you think about it because it's Thursday evening, so rather than imposing something, but if I don't hear from you folks generally, then I'll make some decisions.
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MR. DRATEL: Many of these things were denominated as government exhibits in the first exhibit list that they pulled. So this is no surprise. It is not.
THE COURT: If it is relatively straightforward to do that, then perhaps it is not, you know -- for some of them at least, you can have the government start working on some of them.
MR. DRATEL: I don't want to keep coming back and then some other way that the government then -- they made the decision as to what they want to do. Then I want to make the decision as to what we want to do and not have them compromise --
THE COURT: The one thing I have to say is have you tried a lot of case where the defense shows nothing until the government rests?
MR. DRATEL: Sometimes, yes.
THE COURT: Sometimes. Not very often. It is a rather -- it is not very often. Not in federal court. It's a unique view as to what the defense can do.
Now, I am attempting to have as much patience as is, I think, possible with this, but your view as to things is sometimes beyond my comprehension.
MR. DRATEL: OK. I would just say the predominant number of cases that I have been in, even when the defense puts on a case, that the government doesn't get the kind of advance notice that the government is seeking here of any of this material.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. DRATEL: Maybe 3500.
THE COURT: All right. We're adjourned. We'll pick up on Monday morning at 9.
You folks, if you have lost track of what you owe me in terms of jury instructions or anything else, make sure you look at the transcript because I will hold you to it.
We're adjourned.
COURT CLERK: All rise.
(Adjourned to 9 a.m., Monday, February 2, 2015)