7.Karen Steib Arnold — Direct
116 linesMS. LEWIS: The defense calls Karen Steib Arnold.
(Witness sworn)
THE COURT: Ms. Steib Arnold, please be seated. And it will be important for you to pull the chair up and to adjust the microphone so that you can speak into it clearly. And there will be some water there as soon as we get a new pitcher for you.
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Great. Thank you.
THE COURT: Ms. Lewis, you may proceed.
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD, called as a witness by the Defendant, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. LEWIS:
MS. LEWIS: State your name for us again.
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Karen Steib Arnold.
MS. LEWIS: How old are you, Mrs. Arnold?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: I'm 72.
MS. LEWIS: Where do you live?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: I live in Austin, Texas.
MS. LEWIS: Are you a Texas native?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: I lived in Texas since I was three years old.
MS. LEWIS: What do you do for work?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: I'm a mental health counselor.
MS. LEWIS: What does that job involve?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: I work with people who have problems that can be solved with talk therapy. I also work with some chronic pain sufferers who have both physical therapy and talk therapy. I help people to explore their inner life and to come to see things in ways where they can navigate life comfortably.
MS. LEWIS: In what context do you perform these services?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: I've worked in the clinics. I also have a private practice. Right now I'm associated with a chronic pain clinic and I have a private practice. I've also worked in a rape crisis clinic with sufferers of -- survivors of childhood sexual abuse and rape. And I have also worked with grief and dying-type -- people who are dying and those who are surviving them and grieving. And I've worked with other chronic pain patients.
MS. LEWIS: Before your private practice, did you have something else that you did?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: I was a social worker for many years.
MS. LEWIS: And how long have you done this work collectively, the private practice and the social work?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: About 45 years.
MS. LEWIS: What are the ages of the people that you assess?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Pretty much all ages, not babies, but school-age children to geriatrics.
MS. LEWIS: And what is your education background?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: I have a Master's degree and every year I get continuing education.
MS. LEWIS: What is your Master's in?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Counseling psychology.
MS. LEWIS: Are you familiar with Ross Ulbricht?
MS. LEWIS: And how are you familiar with Ross?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Ross' family, our family are kind of intertwined. We're like twin families. See, I'm good friends with his mother. My husband is good friends with his dad. And we have two children the same ages as Ross and Cally. So all the time our kids were growing up, we did things together as families and with other families, we'd go to the beach, go sailing. I keep their kids, they keep my kids. We were twins.
MS. LEWIS: And how long have you known Ross?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: His whole life.
MS. LEWIS: And do you see Ross in the courtroom today?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Where is Ross? Yes, I do. He has a brown shirt and blue collar.
MS. LEWIS: Have you kept in touch with Ross over the years?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Oh, yes.
MS. LEWIS: And is that including after he graduated from college and graduate school?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Yes. Definitely.
MS. LEWIS: And he was back in Austin at that point?
MS. LEWIS: And do you have any knowledge of what other people think of Ross?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Well, sure yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: Objection.
THE COURT: Why don't you -- depending upon where that's going to go, let's talk about her first, all right.
MS. LEWIS: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MS. LEWIS: So in what context have you -- do you have knowledge of what people think of Ross?
MR. TURNER: Objection to form.
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: We have a community of people --
MR. TURNER: Objection to form.
THE COURT: We'll just have you talk about --
MS. LEWIS: Do you personally have knowledge of what people think of Ross or what Ross -- what was your personal interaction with Ross over time?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Well, depending on the age, because as I said, I've known him all his life when he was --
MS. LEWIS: So we'll take it in portions then. Let's say when he was young during his school years.
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Well, he would stay with us at our house. Our kids would stay at his house. We'd all visit together. Because, you know, to have a family that matches like that is pretty special, so we spent a lot of time together. And I was around Ross a lot as he was a little kid and I was an adult when he was little.
MS. LEWIS: And through his teen years, high school years, what was the context of those connections with Ross?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: The same thing that we did together, things together as families, but it changes of course, when kids grow up. He began to see me as a friend as well as an adult because he was becoming an adult, so I would say he was my friend and the child of one of my friends.
MS. LEWIS: And then later on after he graduated college and was back in Austin, did you see him then, too, and what was the context of that relationship?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Yes. Similar, except that Ross was older, so sometimes -- I mean, I remember once he lent me his car because mine was in the shop. I would see him either when his parents were there or when they weren't, but we always kept in touch. We were almost like relatives the way our families related.
MS. LEWIS: Okay. Do you have knowledge of other people's relationships with Ross?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Well, sure. Yes, I do. We were -- there are many families with kids that got together and did things and had activities together, so I knew all of them. We were friends. We'd have parties or go to the beach or go sailing, so I knew a lot of people who were in that same group.
MS. LEWIS: And was this at all those different stages in his life that you spoke about as a younger and teen years and after college?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Yes. Yes.
MS. LEWIS: Do you have knowledge of what those other people thought of Ross?
MR. TURNER: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained. You can ask it in a different way. And I assume that you'll get there.
MS. LEWIS: Are you familiar with Ross' reputation in the community?
MS. LEWIS: And have you discussed his reputation with other people in the community?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Yes, I have.
MS. LEWIS: And have you talked to them about their impressions of Ross?
MS. LEWIS: And have you talked to them about his reputation for peacefulness and nonviolence?
MS. LEWIS: And what is Ross' reputation for peacefulness and nonviolence?
MR. TURNER: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MS. LEWIS: May I lay a foundation, your Honor, the number of people, who they are?
THE COURT: I don't think that's the issue.
MS. LEWIS: Can we have a side bar, your Honor?
THE COURT: Sure.
(Continued on next page)
(At the side bar)
THE COURT: All right. So that I understand, why don't you tell me what rule that you are thinking you're operating under so we're on the same page?
MS. LEWIS: 804 and 805 involving reputation in the community.
THE COURT: You mean 608?
MS. LEWIS: I'm sorry. It's 404(a) and 405.
THE COURT: This is why I wanted to ask you because I was looking at 608.
MS. LEWIS: I misspoke.
THE COURT: That's all right. Let me take a quick look.
MR. TURNER: Where are we?
THE COURT: 405.
MS. LEWIS: 404(a).
THE COURT: Yes. I'll allow the question under 405. Let me ask Mr. Turner.
MR. TURNER: Partly it was a leading question.
THE COURT: I understand. I'll allow a little bit with the character witness.
Thank you, Ms. Lewis.
(Continued on next page)
(In open court; jury present)
THE COURT: Do you want the question reread or just ask it?
MS. LEWIS: I'll reask it.
MS. LEWIS: Do you have any knowledge of Ross' reputation in the community for peacefulness and nonviolence?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Yes, I do.
MS. LEWIS: What is that reputation?
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Everyone I know who knows Ross sees him as a very peaceful and nonviolent person. He's compassionate, gentle; he always has been. From the time he was a little child, he's a very gentle and compassionate person.
MS. LEWIS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Turner, anything from you, sir?
MR. TURNER: No questions.
THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down, ma'am. Thank you very much.
KAREN STEIB ARNOLD: Thank you.
(Witness excused)
THE COURT: Would the defense like to call its next witness, please.