4.Jared Der-Yeghiayan — Direct (Part 3)
572 linesDIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. TURNER:
MR. TURNER: Agent Der-Yeghiayan, when we left off we were talking about selling out of escrow. Do you remember that?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: Mr. Evert, could you put 113A back on the screen.
MR. TURNER: So, briefly, just to clarify, when you are talking about selling out of escrow, could you explain how it differs from the model shown on this chart?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Sure. It would essentially be skipping this entire section, and the money just goes straight to the vendor but outside of Silk Road.
MR. TURNER: Was there an abbreviation ever used commonly on Silk Road to refer to out of escrow sales?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It's "OOE."
MR. TURNER: Could we go back to Exhibit 120, please, page 4, and could you zoom in at "Images."
MR. TURNER: It says: "Images.
"Some cameras" -- just to clarify, can you remind the jury what exhibit we are reading here, what the nature of this exhibit is?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It is from the seller's guide from Silk Road.
MR. TURNER: So it says: "Some cameras record information about you in an image's metadata such as GPS location. If you link to an image in your listing, be sure to remove all metadata from the file that could reveal details about your identity."
Could you explain what's being referred to here?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: So what they're saying is basically there is data that's contained sometimes within an image, things such as the date it was taken, the time it was taken, as well as sometimes there could be GPS. So it is like satellite coordinates could even be included in an image if you use like a mobile phone. So it is called tagging your image. And basically they could locate you. So those coordinates would be where you took that image from.
MR. TURNER: What sort of images would be posted on a Silk Road vendor page?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: A vendor could have an image that is for them as well as for the listings they are posting up so there would be potentially information in those images that basically law enforcement or someone else could find out who they are or where they are at.
MR. TURNER: Could you go on to page 5, please. "Packaging," the entire section.
MR. TURNER: It says: "Packaging.
"Every precaution must be taken to maintain the secrecy of the contents of your client's package. Creatively disguise it such that a postal inspector might ignore it if it was searched or accidentally came open.
"Ship USPS if within the United States. They must obtain a search warrant to open any packages.
"If the contents of the package have an odor or can be detected by canine or electronic sniffers, you must vacuum seal the package. Do not use odor masking agents such as coffee" beans -- excuse me, "such as coffee because dogs are trained to sniff for these, too. Check that the vacuum seal bag is holding tight around its contents otherwise there is probably a leak.
"Make sure the exterior of the package raises no suspicion. Look as professional as possible. The idea here is blend in as much as possible with the rest of the mail stream, which is mostly "business reply mail." Please print your labels, as handwritten labels can be a give away.
"Protect the contents of your package. If your item is brittle (such as pills), it needs to be sent in padded packaging (such as a bubble mailer). Do not send pills or any bulky items in envelopes. Envelopes get flattened in automated sorting machines and their contents get crushed.
"Do not reveal the details of the packaging you use. You can be tracked this way."
How do these packaging practices compare to those you saw in the shipments that you seized at O'Hare?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was -- they appeared to take this advice because a lot of the packages did have --
MR. DRATEL: Objection.
THE COURT: Hold on one second.
Sustained.
BY MR. TURNER:
MR. TURNER: Just in terms of the appearance, rather than anybody's intent, could you explain how the shipping practices you saw resembled the practices described here?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: They did have -- they did take steps to try to mask the odor. They did take steps to try to put foil around it under the belief that that would potentially block x-ray. So there is -- and as well as doubling up packaging as well.
MR. TURNER: In terms of the professional appearance of the envelopes that you seized?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: The packages did appear to be commercialized and businesslike in that they used printed labels and they used business logos most of the time, too.
MR. TURNER: So how could you become a seller on Silk Road, if you know?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: There is -- off the profile that you would have after you create an account, a user name, there would be a link on the account page to say "Become a seller," and you would simply click on that.
MR. TURNER: Would you look at Government Exhibit 121A, please.
MR. TURNER: Do you recognize this document?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: This is a screenshot that I took from an account I took over on May 1, 2013.
MR. TURNER: The government offers Exhibit 121A into evidence, your Honor.
MR. DRATEL: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 121A received in evidence)
BY MR. TURNER:
MR. TURNER: Could you zoom in on the account links on the side.
Do you see the link you were just describing?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: So where is it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It's at the bottom. It says, "Become a seller."
MR. TURNER: If you clicked on that link, what would show up?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It would come up to a seller's contract on another page.
MR. TURNER: Could you take a look at Government Exhibit 121B. Do you recognize this document?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was a screenshot that I took from my account, and it is from October 23, 2012.
MR. TURNER: And what is it a screenshot of?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It is of the seller's contract.
MR. TURNER: The government offers Government Exhibit 121B into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 121B received in evidence)
MR. TURNER: Could you zoom in under "Shop by category" down to "I agree," please. There you go.
MR. TURNER: OK. It says: "Get your products to your customers quickly, easily, and anonymously, as a Silk Road independent seller. Please read the following contract and the seller's guide carefully. By clicking 'I agree' at the bottom, you agree to abide by the guidelines and terms below when selling on Silk Road.
"Seller contract.
"Client anonymity.
"You and you alone will have your client's shipping address. This information must be destroyed as soon as it is used to label their package.
"Packaging.
"Every precaution must be taken to maintain the secrecy of the contents of your client's package. It is your responsibility to stay up to date on the latest stealth shipping methods. Describe your items accurately and truthfully. Treat your customers with respect. Go above and beyond with them. Read the seller's guide. Don't skip this step, as it includes further information you will be held accountable for as a vendor. If you have used this account as a buyer, stop now. You want to use a fresh, clean account. Remember, violating the rules here will result in your vendor account being banned. I agree."
Did you ever test out what would happen if you click on "I agree"?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I did.
MR. TURNER: And what would happen?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It would take you to another page that then would instruct you to pay a fee to become a vendor.
MR. TURNER: Could we go back to Government Exhibit 132, please.
Down at the bottom again there are links. We looked at "Community Forums" and the "Wiki." What was the "Support" link for? What did that lead to?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: That would lead to a customer support page for Silk Road.
MR. TURNER: And what could be found there?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: There would be a frequently asked -- it would be steps basically trying to provide the user information about if they had a question, it would link you to a frequently asked page, a questions page, as well as give you a link to have direct contact with a customer support representative.
MR. TURNER: What was that called when you would submit something to customer support?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It is called submitting a ticket.
MR. TURNER: And what sort of issues would be submitted to the customer support on Silk Road?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Anything from like an order that didn't go right or something, a problem with a vendor.
MR. TURNER: Now, did anyone on Silk Road purport to be in charge of the site?
MR. TURNER: And how is that user known?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: As "Silk Road" or as "Dread Pirate Roberts."
MR. TURNER: Was he known by any shorter nickname as well?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: As "DPR."
MR. TURNER: Was the Dread Pirate Roberts a target of your investigation of Silk Road?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, he was.
MR. TURNER: Could you go back to Exhibit 132, please. Up at the top of the screen there is "A few words from Dread Pirate Roberts." What would happen if you clicked on that?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: If you clicked on that, it would take you to another page where you would have a message for the users on there.
MR. TURNER: What type of message?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Like a greeting message.
MR. TURNER: How else did Dread Pirate Roberts, or DPR, communicate with the site's users?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Through the forums.
MR. TURNER: Could you take a look at Government Exhibit 123, please.
Do you recognize this document?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It's a screenshot that I took of Dread Pirate Roberts' profile in the forums on April 2, 2012.
MR. TURNER: The government offers Government Exhibit 123 into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 123 received in evidence)
BY MR. TURNER:
MR. TURNER: I just want to make sure, is this the exhibit that you are looking at?
(Pause)
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: No. 123 -- oh, I'm sorry. I was looking at 123A.
MR. TURNER: OK.
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: But this is also a screenshot that I took on 123.
MR. TURNER: So you are looking at what we see on the screen here?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: This is Dread Pirate Roberts' profile page on Silk Road.
MR. TURNER: When did you take this screenshot? Is it indicated anywhere on the screen here?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: I took it at 2:30 -- around 2:34 a.m. UTC on May 9, 2013.
MR. TURNER: Let's just be clear, 2:34 a.m. or 5:17 a.m.?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: I'm sorry. That's 5:17 a.m.
MR. TURNER: So this is the forum profile of the Dread Pirate Roberts. Could you explain what that means? What was the forum profile?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: So each user would have a profile page on the forums that would be associated to their account.
MR. TURNER: And what was it for?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was to -- it was basically to communicate with another user. If you wanted to, you could also check some statistics about the user or information or share information about a particular user from that page.
MR. TURNER: OK. And it says -- first of all, it says, "Date registered here." Actually, let's start over on the left.
"Dread Pirate Roberts," is that his user name?
MR. TURNER: Then under that it says "Administrator." What did that refer to?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It referred to as that user's title on the forum.
MR. TURNER: Is that something -- well, strike that.
Underneath there is a little image of it looks like a pirate. Was that something that -- how was that determined, the image associated with your profile?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: That was referred to as the avatar, and it's basically a feature within the forum when you create a user account, that you could upload an image that you could use to use on your profile.
MR. TURNER: All right. Now look at the "Date registered" in the middle there. What does that refer to?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: "Date registered" would be the time that that account was registered, date and time in UTC.
MR. TURNER: Registered on the forum?
THE COURT: What does "UTC" mean?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Universal Time, which is Greenwich Mean Time.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. TURNER: How does that compare to the Eastern time zone?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It is four or five hours off, depending on the time of the year.
MR. TURNER: Depending on the time of the year?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yeah, Daylight Savings Time.
MR. TURNER: OK. Where is it? Where is UTC or Greenwich Mean Time?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Closest to England, pretty much.
MR. TURNER: So this is the date the account was registered on the forum?
MR. TURNER: And then it says "Local time." What does that refer to?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: That refers to the local time on the server.
MR. TURNER: Was this the time that you were on the page?
MR. TURNER: And then "Last active," what does that mean?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: That would be the last time the account was active on the forum.
MR. TURNER: What does it mean for the account to be active on the forum?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: The last time they actually took some time of step like click on something or was online or doing something on the forum.
MR. TURNER: Then can you zoom in on the signature on the bottom.
MR. TURNER: What was the signature for?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: That was a feature that any user can add a signature at the bottom of their profile. They could be anything that they want.
MR. TURNER: Like what sorts of things?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It could be quotes. It could be that people would put sometimes their listings or links to their vendor profiles, things of that nature.
MR. TURNER: And was this something that the user that is associated with the profile would choose him or herself?
MR. TURNER: And this signature here, you took this shot when, again?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: This was May 9, 2013.
MR. TURNER: Was this typical when you would view DPR's forum profile, was this typically the signature you would see below?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: You would have this or other things usually related to that particular website.
MR. TURNER: Which particular website?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It's the mises.org website.
MR. TURNER: Can we take a look at Government Exhibit 123A, the one you were looking at before. Do you see it in front of you?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Which one?
MR. TURNER: 123A.
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: 123A, yes.
MR. TURNER: OK. Do you recognize that?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: I do. It is a screenshot again from Dread Pirate Roberts' administrator account from April 2, 2012.
MR. TURNER: So the one we just looked at was from July 2013.
MR. TURNER: Did I mess that up?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: The last one was from May 2013.
MR. TURNER: And this was from April the year earlier?
MR. TURNER: The government offers Exhibit 123A into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: No objection.
THE COURT: Received.
(Government's Exhibit 123A received in evidence)
MR. TURNER: Could you go back down to the signature.
MR. TURNER: OK. So there it links to mises.org there?
MR. TURNER: Now, could you zoom out, Mr. Evert.
MR. TURNER: Was there a way of pulling up all of the posts of the Dread Pirate Roberts on the forum at one time?
MR. TURNER: How did you do that?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It's whatever is available to your account, you could click on the left-hand side, underneath the avatar there is a feature called "Show posts."
MR. TURNER: Right there. And did you ever review all of Dread Pirate Roberts' poses?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I did.
MR. TURNER: How often?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Pretty regularly over the course of the investigation.
MR. TURNER: From reviewing Dread Pirate Roberts' posts on the forum, what did you understand his role on the site to be?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: That he was in charge of the site, that he was operating the site.
MR. TURNER: Could you take a look at Government Exhibit 125A, please.
Do you recognize this screenshot, or this document?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It's a screenshot that I took, or, actually, that -- yeah, that I took that was in the forum of Dread Pirate Roberts -- one of Dread Pirate Roberts' posts, October 6, 2013.
MR. TURNER: The government offers Government Exhibit 125A into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: 125A is -- no objection.
THE COURT: All right. Received.
(Government's Exhibit 125A received in evidence)
MR. TURNER: OK. So it says at the top, is this the topic -- you tell me, where is the topic or the subject of the post?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It is up at the top. It says, "Business as usual."
MR. TURNER: And the date is June 18, 2011?
MR. TURNER: And it says: "Hey, gang, really sorry for the dead time there. Hopefully most of you got the message on the bitcoin forum or at silkroadmarket.org. The only major change is this forum. We have it running on a separate server with its own URL so that if the main site ever goes down again, first check here for updates. Unfortunately, this means we have separate logins for the main site and the forum.
"As we mentioned before, everything was backed up and totally restored, but if for some reason a deposit didn't make it into your account or something like that, just let us know and we'll track it down and credit you. Also, we're giving everyone a 4 day grace period on taking orders to the resolution center before they are auto-resolved, so sellers, you may see some orders past due for a few days.
"Thanks everyone for hanging in there with us. This work is scary and exciting all at the same time, and I'm really very happy to be on this journey with all of you.
"Cheers, Silk Road staff."
So could you explain when this post was announced?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: This is the first post that Dread Pirate Roberts, or the Silk Road at the time, made on the forums.
(Continued on next page)
MR. TURNER: And what was it announcing?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was announcing that he created another -- created the forum basically to help get messages out if there was downtime on the market.
MR. TURNER: So we saw before that the Dread Pirate Roberts account was registered when approximately?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was around June 2011.
MR. TURNER: And this is the very first post by that account?
MR. TURNER: And it's signed Silk Road staff, is that right?
MR. TURNER: So at that point, was the name Dread Pirate Roberts associated in any way with this administrator account?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was. Oh, at this time?
MR. TURNER: In July 2011?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: No, it was not.
MR. TURNER: When did that change?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: That changed approximately January or so of 2012, I believe.
MR. TURNER: Can you take a look at Government Exhibit 125B. Do you recognize the pages of this exhibit?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Screen shots that I took of more posts made by Silk Road/Dread Pirate Roberts on October 6, 2013.
MR. TURNER: The government offers Government Exhibit 125B into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: The previous objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Hold on one second.
GX 125B is received.
(Government's Exhibit 125B received in evidence)
MR. TURNER: Can you put it on the screen, please.
MR. TURNER: Okay. So the subject is let's play the name game. The date is January 31, 2012. And it says, who is Silk Road? Some call me SR, SR admin or just Silk Road. But isn't that confusing? I am Silk Road, the market, the person, enterprise, everything. But Silk Road has matured and I need an identity separate from the site and the enterprise of which I am now only a part. I need a name. Actually, I already have a name picked out. It is a great name. You are going to love it. It is perfect on so many levels. But, I'm not going to reveal it until this weekend, when our customer appreciation sale is in full swing.
And let's go to the next page, please.
It this is approximately six days later, and it says drum roll please, and my new name is Dread Pirate Roberts.
So after this, how did the username associated with this forum account appear?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: After this date, it was Dread Pirate Roberts on the forums.
MR. TURNER: And it says at the top here "Begin PGP signed message." And then at the end "Begin PGP signature, end PGP signature."
Are you familiar with PGP?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I am.
MR. TURNER: Have you used PGP before?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I have.
MR. TURNER: Can you explain at a general level what a PGP signature is and what it's used for?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: PGP stands for pretty good privacy, and it's basically a system that -- it's like stamping -- an electronic way of putting a signature or an electronic way to verify who you are that it's like putting a seal on something or stamping something as yours.
MR. TURNER: So what does it mean, "verify who you are"? Are you talking about a new identity or something else?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: No. Meaning, like, verify that the user that you originally know that person as as being that same user online, I guess.
MR. TURNER: So, what would you need -- if you see this, how do you verify that the user who sent this is the Dread Pirate Roberts?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: With this, what you'd have to do is you would have to have what's called a public key. So with this PGP software, when you use it, you give out other people your public key and people can put that into their PGP program.
And something like this, if you wanted to verify if this message was signed by that person that you know who gave you that public key, it will verify it and tell you it's a good signature.
MR. TURNER: Can you take a look at Government Exhibit 133.
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Okay.
MR. TURNER: Do you recognize this document?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It's a screen shot that I took from the Silk Road marketplace of Dread Pirate Roberts' profile.
MR. TURNER: And what date did you take that?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: August 19, 2013.
MR. TURNER: And what does it contain? What information does it contain on the page?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: On his profile page, it contains Dread Pirate Roberts', his public key.
MR. TURNER: Government offers Government Exhibit 133 into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: Objection based on the same ground, based on the same.
THE COURT: All right. Government exhibit 133 is received. GX 133 is received.
(Government's Exhibit 133 received in evidence)
MR. TURNER: Can you zoom in on the text and above starting with "The following PGP key."
MR. TURNER: So it says the following PGP key can be used to verify messages signed by the Silk Road administrator Dread Pirate Roberts.
Now, again, you took this screen shot when?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: I took it August 19, 2013.
MR. TURNER: So if you wanted to verify that a message sent by -- that a message posted by the Dread Pirate Roberts on some later date was posted by the same user who put this -- who controlled this public key as of August 19, 2013, how would you do it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Using this information here --
MR. DRATEL: Objection. Object to the form of the question.
THE COURT: Why don't you restate the question.
MR. TURNER: Sure.
MR. TURNER: Just explain. What is the point of this information? You see it August 19, 2013. What does it allow you to do?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Using the public key, what I would do is basically copy that entire block from the beginning PGP public key to the end, PGP public key, and you would import it or bring it into your program, and then you could use that then to verify messages that are signed by that user.
MR. TURNER: And when you say verify the messages, as a practical matter, what does that mean? What does it assure you of?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It assures you that the person that has that public key wrote that message that they signed.
MR. DRATEL: Objection. Foundation.
THE COURT: Sustained. You'll need to come at it differently for that.
The jury will disregard the last answer.
MR. TURNER: I'll come back to it later.
MR. TURNER: Take a look at Government Exhibit 125C, please. Do you recognize this document?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: I'm still navigating.
MR. TURNER: Sure.
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It's a screen shot that I took of other posts made by Dread Pirate Roberts on the forum on October 6, 2013.
MR. TURNER: And what is the post about?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: On which post? There's multiple posts.
MR. TURNER: What do they generally concern, the posts?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: There's multiple posts on the screen shot that demonstrate when the site -- the Silk Road site was down for maintenance.
MR. TURNER: The government offers Exhibit 125C into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: Objection for the reasons previously stated.
THE COURT: Government Exhibit 125C is received.
(Government's Exhibit 125C received in evidence)
MR. TURNER: Were there times when Silk Road would go down for maintenance?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, there was.
MR. TURNER: And when it did, how would users be notified about it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Generally through the forum such as a post that would be made by Dread Pirate Roberts.
MR. TURNER: So, if we could -- where does this begin, which is the oldest post in the list?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: The oldest post would be at the bottom.
MR. TURNER: Mr. Evert, can you scroll to the text there.
MR. TURNER: The top says main site down for maintenance, date July 22, 2011. It says we are down to fix a problem that has been causing intermittence over the past couple of days. So sorry for the trouble, we'll keep you posted if anything develops and hopefully we'll be back online asap.
Would you please scroll up.
The next couple of days later:
We're live again, hopefully with no more problems, though if your fix didn't work, we may have to go down again sometime in the next few hours.
Yeah, it looks like the fix didn't work, stay tuned for updates. Ok I think we got it, the recent feedback display on the homepage was the problem. We were displaying it -- the way we were displaying it was inefficient and using up all of the server resources, took it down and it seems to be fixed now.
Could you remind the jury was a server means?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: A server is just basically a computer that can host a website.
MR. TURNER: Did Dread Pirate Roberts ever post anything about the servers used to run the Silk Road website?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, he did.
MR. TURNER: From reading those messages, who did you understand who controlled those servers?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Dread Pirate Roberts.
MR. TURNER: Can you take a look at Government Exhibit 125D.
THE COURT: "D" as in David?
MR. TURNER: Yes.
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Okay.
MR. TURNER: Do you recognize this screen shot?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It's a screen shot I took of another post made by Dread Pirate Roberts that I took on October 6, 2013.
MR. TURNER: The government offers the exhibit into evidence, your Honor.
MR. DRATEL: Objection for the reasons previously stated, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 125D as in David is received.
(Government's Exhibit 125D received in evidence)
MR. TURNER: This is dated October 19, 2011, the title is "site outage". And it says we are terribly sorry for the sudden outage today. We will be back up as soon as possible. Thank you for your patience. Update, we are having to rebuild the site from a backup. All bitcoins in user accounts and the escrow are accounted for and all site data has been saved except for roughly the last 30 minutes of activity preceding the outage. Any messages you sent or activity you engaged in during that window will have to be re-done except for deposits and withdrawals. Also, all of the pictures were not backed up, so sellers will need to re-upload them.
There was no security breach or anything to worry about that led to this situation. We lease server space in different locations around the globe through unaware third parties. We do this to hide the identities of those that run Silk Road in the event of a security breach in one of the servers. Unfortunately, this means we have to deal with some unreliable people who, without revealing too much detail, didn't keep their promises and led to our servers being shut down.
Do you know what it means to lease server space from a third party?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: I'm sorry. Could you repeat?
MR. TURNER: Do you know what it means to lease server space from a third party?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: How are you familiar with that?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: In the course of the investigation, we have leased server space from providers.
MR. TURNER: What does that mean? What does that mean to lease server space?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It means going to a company that provides servers and basically leasing the server or leasing space on a server to host a website.
MR. TURNER: So does this mean, like, getting an actual, physical server delivered to you or does it mean something different than that?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It means getting remote access to one through the Internet.
MR. TURNER: And where are the servers themselves hosted generally?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Usually in various locations around the world.
MR. TURNER: All right. So besides -- besides Silk Road's technical infrastructure, what about the goods that were sold on the site? Were any of DPR's posts about that?
MR. TURNER: Could anything be sold on Silk Road or were there rules about that?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: There were some restrictions of items that could be sold.
MR. TURNER: And who appeared to set those rules?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Silk Road itself, Dread Pirate Roberts.
MR. TURNER: Can you take a look at Government Exhibit 125H. Do you recognize -- I'll wait for you.
MR. TURNER: Do you recognize this document?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It's another screen shot of a post from the forums that I took on October 6, 2013 of posts from DPR.
MR. TURNER: The government moves Exhibit 125H into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: Previous objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: GX 125H is received.
(Government's Exhibit 125H received in evidence)
MR. TURNER: The title is forgeries and the date is August 5, 2011 and it says we are happy to announce a new category in the marketplace called forgeries. In this category, you will find offers for forged, government issued documents including fake IDs and passports.
This category comes with some restrictions, however. Sellers may not list forgeries of any privately issued documents such as diplomas/certifications, tickets or receipts. Also, listings for counterfeit currency are still not allowed in the money section.
What did Dread Pirate Roberts' posts reflect, if anything, about who controlled the commissions charged for sales in the website?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It reflected that Dread Pirate Roberts did set the commission rate.
MR. TURNER: Take a look at Government Exhibit 125G -- excuse me -- 125J, please.
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Okay.
MR. TURNER: Do you recognize this document?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It's a screen shot that I took from DPR's posts on the forum that was taken on October 6, 2013.
MR. TURNER: The government moves 125J into evidence, your Honor.
MR. DRATEL: The previous objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: GX 125J is received.
(Government's Exhibit 125J received in evidence)
MR. TURNER: The subject is re: State of the Road Address.
So is this post a response to something else?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: The "re" would stand for a reply to a thread, and that thread would have been, in this case, the State of the Road Address.
MR. TURNER: Are you familiar with the context of this post?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I am.
MR. TURNER: What was it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: In the state of the road -- State of the Road Address, Dread Pirate Roberts talked about different things that he was planning on doing with the website, as well as he set a new commission rate from a fixed rate that they previously had to a tiered commission rate.
MR. TURNER: And were there some Silk Road users who were not happy about the change in the commission rates?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: There were replies that were in the original thread that were not as supportive of the changes.
MR. TURNER: Okay. From January 10, 2012, it says thank you, everyone for your comments and suggestions. One suggestion I especially like is the one about commission being affected by trade volume. To those of you that are either supportive of the change, or have faith in what I'm doing regardless of whether you see the point or not, thank you for your support! I have done everything I can to earn that trust and I cherish it.
To those of you chalking my actions up to pure greed and ignoring the context for the changes, I say shame on you. When have I lied? When have I cheated or stolen from anyone here? When have I treated anyone unfairly? When have I led you astray? Why do you turn on me now when I have poured my heart and soul into this community and project? Ten percent on 50-dollar orders, we're talking about an extra $1.88. A ten-dollar order, an extra 38 cents. Do you think this site built itself? Do you think it runs itself? Do you have any clue what goes on behind the scenes to keep this going? Do you have any idea the risk the people operating this site are taking? Do you have any clue what we've been through to get here today? Do you have any clue what it's going to take to get through the next year?
Whether you like it or not, I am the captain of this ship. You are here voluntarily and if you don't like the rules of the game, or you don't trust your captain, you can get off the boat. For those that stay, we at Silk Road will continue to do everything in our power to keep this market running smoothly and safely, and thank you again for your support!
Can you take a look at Government Exhibit 125K. Do you recognize this document?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It's another screen shot from Dread Pirate Roberts' forum account of a post he made and I took it October 6, 2013.
MR. TURNER: The government offers 125K into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: The previous objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Government Exhibit 125K is received. I'm just hesitating because I'm trying to determine whether or not the statements -- why don't you have the witness talk about who is saying what to whom? There are shaded areas, what they're referring to, and I'll see if there's an issue.
MR. TURNER: Okay.
THE COURT: But 125K is received subject to the Court confirming certain pieces of it, which I believe will be confirmed through additional testimony.
MR. TURNER: I'm just going to be focused on the last quarter of the document under quote number four, except for that quote.
THE COURT: I see. Government Exhibit 125K is received.
(Government's Exhibit 125K received in evidence)
MR. TURNER: So the subject line here is, again, re: State of the Road, this time, re: State of the Road comment.
MR. TURNER: Can you zoom into this area, Mr. Evert.
MR. TURNER: Again, is the context of this thread, this post, still the State of the Road Address where his commission changes were announced?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, it is.
MR. TURNER: And it starts off, it says -- this little blue shaded area and it says, quote from paperchasing on January 11, 2012, 7:29 p.m., problem number four, what about the BTCs I send out to exchangers? Is that taxed?
First of all, this is a formatting issue. What does it mean the quote from the blue shading?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Within a post or reply you make, you could also quote other users or quote anything really for that matter by either selecting the previous post and pressing a button that would automatically quote it.
MR. TURNER: Down here?
MR. TURNER: "Quote"?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Or enter it in by hand, you can enter in a quote like that
MR. TURNER: So it's the username paperchasing that's being quoted here?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: The user is paperchasing that's being quoted.
MR. TURNER: And it was a post paperchasing made that said what about the BTCs. I send out those exchanges. Is that taxed?
Right?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: The section in blue that follows after paperchasing on January 11, 2012 is the comment that was made by paperchasing or is being quoted from paperchasing.
MR. TURNER: Now, before you testified that there were bitcoin exchangers that operated on Silk Road itself, right?
MR. TURNER: So it says here underneath, this text here, who posted that?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: That would be from Dread Pirate Roberts.
MR. TURNER: It says I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about here, but the practices of bitcoin exchangers on that site are not affected by the new policies. Again, the site was never designed to support bitcoin exchange, but since people want to use it that way, we will accommodate and are presently working on a solution.
Also, you are misusing the word tax, which I think is why you were accused of acting like Silk Road is a government. What you are referring to is more appropriately called a commission or a broker's fee. It would be a tax if I tried to take money from you based on a transaction I wasn't involved in. You are free to sell whatever you want to whomever you want without my interference, but if you are going to use the Silk Road platform to meet your customers and advertise your wares, you will need to pay a commission.
Thank you everyone for your support!
Going back to the seller's guide for a minute, we talked about the rule that banned Silk Road sellers from selling OOE or out of escrow.
Do you remember that?
MR. TURNER: Did DPR ever post anything about that rule on the forums?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: DPR would remind users if there was a vendor that did this, that it's prohibited.
MR. TURNER: Could you take a look at Government Exhibit 125G.
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Okay.
MR. TURNER: Do you recognize this document?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It is a screen shot that I took of DPR's posts from the forum which I took on October 6, 2013.
MR. TURNER: The government offers 125G into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: Same objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Government Exhibit 125G is received.
(Government's Exhibit 125G received in evidence)
MR. TURNER: It says here vendor roundtable/the rules are like gravity.
What section of the forum was this in?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: This was in a restricted -- it was a hidden forum within the forum that was only available to verified vendors from the Silk Road marketplace.
MR. TURNER: And the topic is "The rules are like gravity," the date is November 25, 2012. Each week I get a report from my reps. Part of that report is the vendors who were demoted that week. There is always at least one, with the most common offenses being asking customers to pay directly, going around the escrow system, and scamming customers by asking them to finalize early. One demoted vendor this week was pleading for his account back over and over and wouldn't take no for an answer. I hate seeing that kind of thing, but for a rule to have any meaning, it has to apply in all cases all the time, like the laws of physics.
Gravity doesn't care if your intention was to fly or jump, or how important or insignificant you are. It will pull you down every time in the same way. Just like that, we will enforce the rules every time, in the same way, to everyone. If you are breaking the rules, it is only a matter of time before you will be demoted.
Please have the integrity to play by the rules of the game you signed up for so we don't have to keep ruining people's businesses and dealing with the fallout of scams. It's not worth it.
To those honoring the contract you signed up with (99.9 percent of you), thank you for your shining example!
You testified earlier that most of the drugs -- excuse me -- most of the goods on sale on Silk Road were illegal drugs?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, they were.
MR. TURNER: Now, based on DPR's posts, did DPR seem to be aware of that?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, he was.
MR. DRATEL: Objection.
THE COURT: Hold on one second. Sustained, and that answer is struck.
MR. TURNER: Take a look at Government Exhibit 125L. Do you recognize this document?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It's a screen shot of a post from DPR that I took on October 6, 2013.
MR. TURNER: The government offers 125L.
THE COURT: 125L as in Larry.
MR. DRATEL: The previously stated objection.
THE COURT: All right. GX 125L is received.
(Government's Exhibit 125L received in evidence)
MR. TURNER: The subject is just "re: chat" and it says it's great enough -- excuse me -- it's great to see that my words are resonating with so many of you. It's a privilege to have a stage to speak from here. It doesn't get said enough, and it is hard to get across in this medium but...I love you.
Who knew that a softy could lead an international narcotics organization? Behind my wall of anonymity, I don't have to intimidate thankfully, but, yeah, I love you guys. Thank you for being here. Thank you for my comrades. Thank you for being yourselves and bringing your unique perspectives and energy. And on a personal note, thank you for giving me the best job in the world. I've never had so much fun. I know we've been at it for over a year now, but really, we are just getting started. I'm so excited and anxious for our future, I could burst.
Did Dread Pirate Roberts run the site alone or did he have a support staff?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: He had a support staff.
MR. TURNER: How do you know that?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Because I took over the account that was one of the support staff's.
MR. TURNER: And when you say "took over," remind the jury what you mean.
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: That means that either through interview or arrests, I was given consent to utilize an account that belonged to his support staff.
THE COURT: Could you explain that a little bit more.
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Sure. So, through the course of the investigation, identified someone that was a support staff member that through interviewing and through talking to the person, they were -- they gave us authorization, the government, to use that account by giving us the username and password to all the different marketplace and forum that account had.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. TURNER: What was the username associated with the support staff account that you took over?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was cirrus.
MR. TURNER: How do you spell that?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: C-I-R-R-U-S.
MR. TURNER: And approximately, when did you take over the cirrus account?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was late July 2013.
MR. TURNER: And was this an account on the Silk Road marketplace or the Silk Road forum or both?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was both.
MR. TURNER: When you got access to these accounts, did that access include the private message in boxes associated with the accounts?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, it did.
MR. TURNER: And when you took over the accounts, were there any messages in those in boxes already?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, there was.
MR. TURNER: Could you take a look at Government Exhibit 126A. Do you recognize this document?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was a screen shot of one of the private messages that was in the account that I took. I took the screen shot on September 30, 2013.
MR. TURNER: And when you say private messages, are you talking about the forum private message system or the marketplace private message system?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: This was a forum private message.
MR. TURNER: And this was the cirrus account on the forum?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, it was.
MR. TURNER: The government offers 126A into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: The previously stated objection.
THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 126A is received. Hold on for just one moment if you would, please.
(Government's Exhibit 126A received in evidence)
THE COURT: What was the approximate date when you took over the account, sir?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Approximately July 26, 27th of 2013.
THE COURT: Thank you.
You may proceed, Mr. Turner.
MR. TURNER: Thank you.
Can you publish the exhibit, Mr. Evert.
MR. TURNER: Where does the chain begin? Top or bottom?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: The post in the bottom is the oldest post.
MR. TURNER: Okay. It was sent July 12, 2013 a.m. So was this already in the in box by the time you took it over?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, it was.
MR. TURNER: And it's from Dread Pirate Roberts, and who is it to?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was sent to the other staff support administrators and also the account that I took over.
MR. TURNER: It was sent to cirrus?
MR. TURNER: And the other usernames were --
MR. TURNER: Could you blow that up Mr. Evert?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was samesamebutdifferent, inigo and libertas.
MR. TURNER: Okay. And it says hey, gang, we have a new moderator going by the name cirrus. We used to know him as scout. Cirrus has always been dedicated to our common goals and the community at large and we put what happened surrounding Mr. Wonderful behind us so he can come back onto the team. The scout persona is still off limits and should not be discussed, so we'll always refer to cirrus as cirrus, even though we know the same person is behind both accounts.
And then it says -- there was a reply from cirrus. Is this by you or the person who previously controlled the account?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: No. It was by the person who previously controlled the account.
MR. TURNER: It says thank you for the introduction! I'm really excited to be back and working with you guys. Missed you all!
So you said these other individuals -- other usernames here samesamebutdifferent, inigo and libertas, were they also support staff members?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Each of them did different roles within the forum and the marketplace, but they were all part of the support staff.
MR. TURNER: And it says that we have a new moderator going by the name cirrus.
Did you actually start performing the duties of a moderator after you took over the cirrus account?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I did.
MR. TURNER: Could you explain what those duties were and what you spent most of your time doing.
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: So, as a moderator over the forums, it would be basically trying to keep the forum clean in the way that DPR wanted it to be.
MR. TURNER: Clean how?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Clean in that making sure that posts that were new threads that were in certain subforums were moved to the appropriate subforums. So if someone posted something about security in the main discussion forum, I would move it to the security forum.
MR. TURNER: When you say clean, you mean organized?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Organized; yes.
MR. TURNER: Okay.
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: As well as if there was something that was posted, such as they call it spam where a -- either a computer or some other person might be posting messages on the forum that was advertising or trying to put a lot of things on there that was unrelated to Silk Road, we would be, as moderator, responsible for removing those posts and deleting them.
MR. TURNER: What other things?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: In addition, answering customer support issues and there's a customer support forum that was at the bottom of the forums. And so, Dread Pirate Roberts wanted support staff and the moderators to respond to every one of those support threads that were on there.
MR. TURNER: So what were some of the comment -- support questions you answered?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: A lot of the support questions I'd answer would be things about how do I get to the site or how do I get help with this or this vendor didn't help me or didn't get my product or my bitcoins didn't show up in my account, how long should I wait, those types of questions.
MR. TURNER: How many hours a day would you spend working undercover as a Silk Road moderator when you took over the account?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Anywhere from ten to 12.
MR. TURNER: Ten to 12 hours?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: A day.
MR. TURNER: Were you paid as part of your position?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I was.
MR. TURNER: By the hour or the week? What?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: By the week.
MR. TURNER: What was your salary?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Salary was paid in bitcoins, and it was roughly about a thousand dollars a week.
MR. TURNER: And who paid you?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was Dread Pirate Roberts.
MR. TURNER: How would you receive payment?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It would be sent to my market account that I had, so it would be credited from the admin to my account from Dread Pirate Roberts.
MR. TURNER: When you say the market account, you mean the Silk Road marketplace?
MR. TURNER: Can you take a look at Government Exhibit 126C.
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Okay.
MR. TURNER: Do you recognize this document?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It's a screen shot that I took of the account history page from my undercover account. I took it on September 26, 2013.
MR. TURNER: The government offers 126C into evidence, your Honor.
MR. DRATEL: The same objection, your Honor, as previously stated.
THE COURT: GX 126C is received.
(Government's Exhibit 126C received in evidence)
MR. TURNER: Publish it, Mr. Evert.
MR. TURNER: What are we looking at here? Which account is this?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: This is my cirrus account.
MR. TURNER: Where is that reflected?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Up in the upper right-hand corner.
MR. TURNER: What's on the left side?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: On the left-hand side, it's just the account history summary. So this would be a roughly a two-month history of the account of what it received.
MR. TURNER: So where is -- can you just point us to a sample payment of your salary.
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: So the most recent payment that was received in the account on this history page would have been the one at the very top where the action came from admin. And in the notes, that number there is the user number that's for Dread Pirate Roberts that I recall. And the amount shows that I got transferred from admin eight bitcoins and that the balance in my account was eight bitcoins.
MR. TURNER: How much was eight bitcoins worth at that point?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was about, like, $120 a bitcoin or so at that point.
MR. TURNER: So how much in total? A thousand dollars?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Roughly, yeah, like a thousand dollars.
MR. TURNER: And beyond just knowing the user number there corresponding with Dread Pirate Roberts, how else would you know that Dread Pirate Roberts was the one sending you this salary payment?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Some of the times when I received these, I would send a reply on the forum to Dread Pirate Roberts telling him thank you for the payment and he'd reply back you're welcome or something to that effect.
MR. TURNER: Can you take a look at Government Exhibit 126D, please. Do you recognize this exhibit?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do.
MR. TURNER: How do you recognize it?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: This is one of the private messages that I sent from my cirrus account on the forums to Dread Pirate Roberts.
MR. TURNER: The government offers 126D into evidence.
MR. DRATEL: The same objection.
THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 126D is received.
(Government's Exhibit 126D received in evidence)
MR. TURNER: Going down to the first message down at the bottom it says from you to Dread Pirate Roberts, right?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: That's correct.
MR. TURNER: August 9, 2013, thanks for the bitcoins. And then the reply is you're welcome! Thanks for looking after the forums.
As a moderator, did you have any access to parts of the site that ordinary users couldn't see?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: I did.
MR. TURNER: Like what?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: There were restricted forums that were -- that I was able to see, such as a vendor roundtable forum and there was also a recycle bin that I could see.
MR. TURNER: Did you have any permissions and abilities that ordinary users didn't have?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I did. I had -- on the forums, I had administrative rights, unlimited administrative rights that I could search for different users and search through the databases that we had of users, that wasn't something openly available as a general user, as well as the ability to edit, delete and move threads and posts on the forum.
MR. TURNER: Were there any limits on your administrative powers?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, there were.
MR. TURNER: How do you know?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Because just knowing that there was other features that I couldn't access within the admin panels and there was areas that I couldn't see that from discussing it with other people such as Dread Pirate Roberts would tell me that there's other things that's available basically.
MR. TURNER: So who set the restrictions on your abilities, your administrative powers?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Dread Pirate Roberts.
MR. TURNER: Going back to 126A, can you bring that back up, Mr. Evert.
MR. TURNER: This message is from samesamebutdifferent, inigo and libertas, do you know what the roles of these users was on the site?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, I do go.
MR. TURNER: Beyond what you've already told us?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes. Would you like me to go into that?
MR. TURNER: Yes. But you know what, let me go back to one thing before we leave the bitcoin payments.
What did you do with the bitcoins you received as salary as an administrator?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Back on the history page, you'll see that after every time we received a payment from bitcoins --
MR. TURNER: 126C, Mr. Evert.
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: After every payment was received, withdraw it either the next day or the same day of, as soon as we could, and withdraw it to another undercover bitcoin wallet and then also transfer that, then, to an exchange that was also registered with an undercover account where we would convert the bitcoins into dollars and then seize them.
MR. TURNER: So what agency did the bitcoins or the dollars from the bitcoins ultimately end up with?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: With HSI.
MR. TURNER: So let's go back again to 126A. You were about to say -- what were the roles of inigo, libertas and samesamebutdifferent on the site and how do you know?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Samesamebutdifferent was a -- primarily a forum moderator for a little bit. He did have access over the marketplaces and admin, but that didn't last long. Instead, he focused primarily on trying to answer customer support tickets or customer support issues in the forum.
MR. TURNER: How do you know this?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Because from talking to samesamebutdifferent as well as sending a lot of private messages between himself and I, we would split the work that was done because he was located in Australia, I was located in Chicago, and there were times that generally I'd be asleep, he would cover the customer support and vice versa.
MR. TURNER: And how about inigo?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: With inigo, inigo was primarily over vendor support on the marketplace, also had administrative capabilities on the forums.
MR. TURNER: What do you mean by vendor support?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Vendor support was a feature of support that was available to vendors that they could contact vendor support if they had an issue that they needed to resolve.
MR. TURNER: Like what?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Such as like an order that a buyer hadn't paid them for or an order where there was a problem with the listings or a problem with a withdrawal that the vendor needed help with, they would give more priority to the vendors.
MR. DRATEL: Object just on grounds with respect to foundation.
THE COURT: Hold on one second. Let me just read the answer.
What's the basis for that answer that you just gave about the vendor support?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: It was through my direct chats that I had had with inigo.
THE COURT: All right. I will allow it.
When you reach a logical breaking point, I know it's a little early, but there are a couple of things I just want to go over so it will be good to take it a few minutes early if we can.
MR. TURNER: Three more minutes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. TURNER: So inigo was in charge of vendor support. How about libertas?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: But also going back to inigo, in addition to vendor support, he also had access to customer support, which is just, again, the same thing but for customers.
MR. TURNER: Buyers? By customers you mean buyers?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes. So he would do a little bit of both. And then libertas was also customer support primarily on the marketplace, so he would handle the tickets that would come in for customer support on the market and respond to those and would sometimes also cover some of the duties of vendor support.
MR. TURNER: Did you know whether the other members of the support staff were paid like you were?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: Yes, they were.
MR. TURNER: How do you know?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: From direct chats with them. Sometimes when I wasn't paid, either when we were expecting to get paid, my conversations with them would also reflect that they didn't get paid, too, and they were telling me they didn't get paid.
MR. TURNER: Samesamebutdifferent, did he have any other nicknames?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: He did.
MR. TURNER: What were they?
JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN: He also went by, for short while, symmetry, which was his administrative name on the marketplace; and then also had batman73, which was his account that he used primarily on the market; and he was also commonly referred to as SSBD, which is short for samesamebutdifferent.