3.Jared Der-Yeghiayan — Cross (Part 6)

MR. DRATEL: Good morning, Agent Der-Yeghiayan, is that right?

MR. DRATEL: Why don't we talk about the PGP demonstration, the key that you did this morning.

MR. DRATEL: And just initially, there were forum posts, weren't, there's, that people couldn't validate with the public key, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And a private key, which you talked about, is just a block of text like the public key that you showed, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And when you use the term own a private key, you just mean have possession of that block of text, correct?

MR. DRATEL: So it could be cut and paste and sent to someone else, correct?

MR. DRATEL: It could be shared by the person who generated the key, correct?

MR. DRATEL: It could be stolen --

MR. DRATEL: And it doesn't have to be the same device that uses that key from message to message, from month to month, year to year, correct?

MR. DRATEL: It is really the block of text. It is not whether it is a laptop or a desk-top or a phone or anything like that, right, it is the block of text that counts, right?

MR. DRATEL: So the only thing that you know when you verify is that you're communicating with someone who is using that block of text, correct?

MR. DRATEL: It doesn't have to be the same person from message to message, just a person who is using that block of text?

MR. DRATEL: Right. But the same thing. The password is just like any other password? It could be typed in? It could be shared? It could be sent? It could be cut and paste? Right?

MR. DRATEL: It could be hacked, right?

MR. DRATEL: And these keys can be passed on, correct, from person to person?

MR. DRATEL: In that way it is not really any different on a certain level than a car key, right? It can go from driver to driver and you operate the car, correct?

MR. DRATEL: Right. So if you had to, let's say, enter something into a car like on a punch key or something like that, it would be the same difference, right? All you had to do is a password?

MR. DRATEL: Yes. The same thing if the office manager retires and has the key to the file cabinet and there is maybe also not only the key but also a little keypad on it and the next office manager comes along and says here's the file key and here's the code for the key punch, right?

MR. DRATEL: Now, what you showed us on the exhibit was that the key was created April 1, 2011, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And it wasn't created as Dread Pirate Roberts, right? There is nothing about that key that says Dread Pirate Roberts, right?

MR. DRATEL: It says Silk Road, right?

MR. DRATEL: By the way, the person who creates that key would still have the information -- even if it was passed on, they still have that block of text, right?

MR. DRATEL: Right. Even if someone else was using the key, even if they passed on -- the office manager could have made a copy of the file key, right -- of the file cabinet key, right?

MR. DRATEL: And multiple people could use it at the same time?

MR. DRATEL: Message to messaging?

MR. DRATEL: You talked about Dread Pirate Roberts and the movie "The Princess Bride," right?

MR. DRATEL: In fairness to the author, you know it was also a book originally?

MR. DRATEL: Part of that legend is continuity, right?

MR. DRATEL: And the continuity being that the essence of the personality stays the same, correct?

MR. DRATEL: In fact, you yourself thought that DPR changed over time, didn't you?

MR. DRATEL: And even as late as August of 2013, you thought that DPR had changed in April of 2013, didn't you?

MR. DRATEL: But you told people inside your organization, Homeland Security Investigations, that DPR -- you believed that DPR had changed in April of 2013?

MR. DRATEL: Sure. Just for the witness, 3505-787.

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I understand it can't be done electronically from our position. I guess only from the main -- I will just show him.

MR. DRATEL: Yes. It is 3505-787.

MR. DRATEL: Obviously, just read it to yourself, the top part.

MR. DRATEL: And so in August of 2013, you expressed your opinion that DPR had changed in April of 2013?

MR. DRATEL: But it is April?

MR. DRATEL: I'm sorry. The email is August of 2013, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And you talk about someone with a screen name who you thought might have been the previous DPR, right?

MR. DRATEL: And you thought that even though you knew that the private key was the same as it always had been, right?

MR. DRATEL: You thought there was a different DPR notwithstanding the continuity of the private key?

MR. DRATEL: What I'm saying is even notwithstanding this same private key throughout, you expressed an opinion in August of 2013, basically two months before Mr. Ulbricht's arrest, correct, that DPR had changed in April, and now you don't know whether it is 2012 or 2013 in April, right?

MR. DRATEL: But it doesn't say 2012, does it?

MR. DRATEL: That is not what you put in your email, right?

MR. DRATEL: Right. In August of 2013, right?

MR. DRATEL: No. No. what I am saying is the email is August of 2013?

MR. DRATEL: And when you say it changed in April, you didn't say April a year ago, you said April, right?

MR. DRATEL: Have you taken any acting courses?

MR. DRATEL: What kind of computer training have you had?

MR. DRATEL: What did that include?

MR. DRATEL: OK. So nothing about computer deception, right?

MR. DRATEL: Nothing about how to assume an online identity different from your actual identity, right?

MR. DRATEL: But you were able to do that flawlessly, right?

MR. DRATEL: You operated a number of accounts, maybe two dozen over time, maybe more, right, on Silk Road at some point or another?

MR. DRATEL: And you were an administrator communicating directly with Dread Pirate Roberts every couple of days, right?

MR. DRATEL: Communicating with the other administrators -- inigo, libertas -- right?

MR. DRATEL: Anybody else, administrators who you communicated with?

MR. DRATEL: Dread Pirate Roberts didn't know you were a law enforcement agent?

MR. DRATEL: None of the people you interacted with on the vendor support or any kind of other -- with Silk Road users, none of them knew, right, that Cirrus was a law enforcement agent, right?

MR. DRATEL: Without any training, you were able to do that?

MR. DRATEL: You had multiple persona at the same time, right?

MR. DRATEL: At the same time online, right?

MR. DRATEL: And, again, without any glitch in terms of you never gave it away; no one ever said, oh, I know you're a cop, get off the site, right?

MR. DRATEL: In fact, you weren't sure yourself often who you were communicating with on the site despite their screen name, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And, in fact, there were times when you thought that DPR might be operating some of the other administrator accounts, right?

MR. DRATEL: And at one point it was pretty frustrating, right, for your investigation purposes, correct?

MR. DRATEL: In fact, at one point you said "Who's on first," right?

MR. DRATEL: I mean, literally, right?

MR. DRATEL: OK.

MR. DRATEL: May I approach, your Honor?

MR. DRATEL: It was a little more complicated than I had hoped it would be.

MR. DRATEL: It is the bottom of the first page, and then it is double-sided so just flip over to the top of the next page.

MR. DRATEL: So you said, "Sheesh, who's on first," right?

MR. DRATEL: Because it was a complicated situation as to whether or not someone was commandeering someone else's account and who you are actually communicating with, right?

MR. DRATEL: And that's June of 2013?

MR. DRATEL: And Cirrus was an account that you took over, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And Cirrus was originally an account that was called Scout, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And you ultimately cultivated Scout to give up the account, correct?

MR. DRATEL: At some point because you revealed to them that you were law enforcement, correct?

MR. DRATEL: No, but I'm saying at some point you did reveal it and then they let you assume their account?

MR. DRATEL: In fact, you were surprised when you found out Scout was female, right?

MR. DRATEL: One of your challenges in getting Scout to relinquish her account and give you access to Scout, and then ultimately to Cirrus, was how to convince Scout that you were law enforcement and that DPR was tricking her -- him you thought at the time but her and that her better option, or Scout's better option was to go with the law enforcement, you had to do that online in a way that didn't impair the investigation, correct?

MR. DRATEL: I will break it down.

MR. DRATEL: But that was a challenge for the investigation, correct, as a whole?

MR. DRATEL: To convince Scout, whether it was you or a colleague of yours, to convince Scout that DPR was tricking Scout and that Scout's better option was to essentially align with law enforcement?

MR. DRATEL: Right. That is ultimately what happened, right?

MR. DRATEL: I'm saying, the other agent's challenge was this other aspect of trying to do something online that would convince Scout to essentially relinquish her account to law enforcement?

MR. DRATEL: Then you started the investigation in October of 2011?

MR. DRATEL: And you told us that the seizures began to increase after June 2011, right?

MR. DRATEL: Prior to that there were hardly any -- nothing to note, if there was anything noteworthy?

MR. DRATEL: In fact, by October -- in October of 2011, there were only four seizures that year.

MR. DRATEL: And then that multiplied by 2012 and throughout the months of 2012, right?

MR. DRATEL: And you said you had never seen that ecstasy before, right? You testified --

MR. DRATEL: That is right. OK. Also, these Netherlands' shippers, right?

MR. DRATEL: So anything that would have happened on Silk Road before June of 2011 really would not have come to your attention at all, right?

MR. DRATEL: But you don't know is what I am saying?

MR. DRATEL: You have no idea really where the packages -- you don't know anything about any of the transactions before June 2011?

MR. DRATEL: And you had been there for years, in some form or another, at O'Hare as either border patrol or HSI?

MR. DRATEL: CBP?

MR. DRATEL: And the traffic on Silk Road increased significantly after that, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And also there was an NPR report in October 2011, right?

MR. DRATEL: That also publicized it, and, again, you started seeing an increase in traffic?

MR. DRATEL: Now, you talked about border authority initially. Basically, without a warrant, you have the authority to pretty much search anything that is coming in, right, to the United States?

MR. DRATEL: You say you do a lot of x-ray and other -- and canines, right?

MR. DRATEL: Now, all of the screenshots that you put in evidence of the silkroad.onion, they are all from 2012 or later, right?

MR. DRATEL: And were you on the site at all before 2012?

MR. DRATEL: Late 2011?

MR. DRATEL: After you started your investigation?

MR. DRATEL: So do you know when Silk Road first began charging commissions?

MR. DRATEL: You think it is from the very start?

MR. DRATEL: Did you ever look at the initial transaction history?

MR. DRATEL: But you have it now, right?

MR. DRATEL: Yes. You have access to it, right?

MR. DRATEL: You haven't reviewed it, right. So it is your assumption that the commissions go back to the beginning?

MR. DRATEL: But you don't know for sure?

MR. DRATEL: How about the escrow system, do you know when that was instituted on Silk Road?

MR. DRATEL: Your first buys were when?

MR. DRATEL: So it has already been in existence for eight/nine months already, right?

MR. DRATEL: So you don't know anything about the transactions before then with respect to an escrow system other than when you started making purchases, right?

MR. DRATEL: Do you know when Silk Road first launched its Wiki page?

MR. DRATEL: Do you know whether it was when it launched the forum, before or after?

MR. DRATEL: Right. So do you know whether it was launched before or after the forum?

MR. DRATEL: Do you know what the seller's guide looked like in June or July or August or September of 2011, before you first got on that site?

MR. DRATEL: Do you know what the buyer's guide looked like during that same time period before you got on the site?

MR. DRATEL: Do you know if there was a seller's contract of the type where it says "I agree" before you got on the site?

MR. DRATEL: Do you know when the first heroin sale on Silk Road was made?

MR. DRATEL: Cocaine?

MR. DRATEL: Do you know when Silk Road first offered forgeries?

MR. DRATEL: When was that?

MR. DRATEL: With respect to 116B, which is not forgeries but the hacking tools, right, there was something called an RAT? Is that a remote access trojan, do you know what that is?

MR. DRATEL: Trojan means something you implant into somebody's computer, right?

MR. DRATEL: And then allow others to operate it, right?

MR. DRATEL: This is already in evidence, Government 106, Tor. I want to talk about Tor a little bit. OK?

MR. DRATEL: Would you show government's 106, please.

MR. DRATEL: That is it. Thank you.

MR. DRATEL: So that is the diagram where you explained somewhat how Tor operates, right?

MR. DRATEL: And if the user, let's say, on the left initiates a communication, right, that first computer is the entry node, right?

MR. DRATEL: And the one on the right, where it says "Web server (hidden service)," where it goes from that last computer to the hidden service, is an exit node, right?

MR. DRATEL: Where were the exit nodes?

MR. DRATEL: Right. Obviously, there is a lot more computers than this, correct?

MR. DRATEL: That's why it works is because there are enough computers worldwide on the Tor network to permit the relays not to be traced?

MR. DRATEL: And when you say "documented" --

MR. DRATEL: Right. But, nevertheless, because of the way it is done, it's very difficult, if not impossible, to trace, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And some people think that by monitoring exit nodes and looking at traffic, you can find hidden services, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And let's try to put it in a different analogy. If you're the user on the left and you get into a car on the street and then someone sees you get into the car on the street and then you go on the highway and you stop and you change cars and you stop and you change cars and you stop and you change cars and you stop and you change cars, when you get to the destination, no one may be able to find you, right, because assuming that that -- that you are not being surveilled the whole way through, right?

MR. DRATEL: By the way, 125H, Government's 125H, just if you want to look at it, for the forgeries.

MR. DRATEL: August of 2011.

MR. DRATEL: Thank you. Now, Tor is not, as you said, not illegal. In fact, it is widely used by millions of users to access typical Internet activity, right?

MR. DRATEL: And, for example, people, let's say, Chinese nationals in China use Tor to get around governmental restrictions on their Internet activity, right?

MR. DRATEL: And you talked about torproject.org, right, which is a website on the open Web, right?

MR. DRATEL: And you have been on that page, right?

MR. DRATEL: And so you know that Tor was originally developed by the U.S. government -- U.S. Naval research, right?

MR. DRATEL: And designed for sensitive military and government communications; that's what it was designed to facilitate?

MR. DRATEL: But now it's used by not only the military, journalists, law enforcement, as I say, people in countries where Internet is restricted, right?

MR. DRATEL: So, for example, if a website uses your search history and your buying history to decide whether you should get a discount or not, depending on your buying habits and how often you buy retail and how often you use a discount, Tor could prevent them from discriminating one way or the other -- the website against a customer who uses Tor to gain access to those sites, right?

MR. DRATEL: So what Tor really does is prevent whoever can, or would, from monitoring a person's Internet tracking?

MR. DRATEL: In fact, you can use Tor as a law enforcement officer to either visit a website or some other part of the Internet without the other side knowing that it is law enforcement that's viewing a page, right?

MR. DRATEL: It is like having a No Caller ID, right?

MR. DRATEL: And a lot of people got No Caller ID for that kind of reason, right?

MR. DRATEL: Now, "hidden service" just really means that it is on Tor alone, correct?

MR. DRATEL: It is only accessible --

MR. DRATEL: It could be anything. It could be something that someone in Iran doesn't want censored, right?

MR. DRATEL: There is nothing sinister about that connotation, that description, right?

MR. DRATEL: Now, let's talk about seizures. And you had an exhibit with all of the boxes, right --

MR. DRATEL: -- that you made at Chicago O'Hare International mail of illegal -- of contraband coming into the United States, right? All of that was drugs, right?

MR. DRATEL: So you connected them to Silk Road because you would match the product with something that was advertised for sale on Silk Road, correct?

MR. DRATEL: But you don't have any proof that that was actually ordered off of Silk Road, what you seized?

MR. DRATEL: Objection.

MR. DRATEL: OK.

MR. DRATEL: And he told you that, right?

MR. DRATEL: OK. There were also other websites on Tor that sell drugs, right, through the mail and through -- right? Through the mail?

MR. DRATEL: So if I saw a book on Amazon and then I ordered it from Barnes & Noble and it came in a package that didn't say where it was -- that didn't have either -- anything on it, can you assume where it came from -- can you confirm, rather, can you conclude that it came from Barnes & Noble's or Amazon if they both sell it just because it advertises on Amazon?

MR. DRATEL: It wouldn't even have to be off of sites; people could be on Tor chat or some other private messaging, PGP, Pidgin, be in direct contact with drug dealers overseas or in the United States, order drugs through the mail?

MR. DRATEL: What could also happen is that someone could have been on a site, any of the Tor sites, any of the hidden services that might sell drugs, purchase ones off the site and then initiate a private conversation with the person who actually sold the drugs and do all the rest of the sales privately, right?

MR. DRATEL: And they could tell all their friends how to do it, too, right?

MR. DRATEL: Now, at some point you stopped making seizures, right?

MR. DRATEL: You had plenty, right?

MR. DRATEL: By a large margin?

MR. DRATEL: And heroin was only 261 grams, right, of heroin?

MR. DRATEL: And about 457 grams of cocaine, right?

MR. DRATEL: That is May of 2013?

MR. DRATEL: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. DRATEL: You talked a fair amount of bitcoin in your direct testimony, right?

MR. DRATEL: Bitcoin was an essential element of Silk Road, right?

MR. DRATEL: And the exchanges that you talked about that were used to cash out, the ones you talked about, like Mt. Gox and others, were all on the ordinary Internet, right?

MR. DRATEL: They are not hidden services, they are not on Tor?

MR. DRATEL: And even any exchanges that were made on the page or as a result of the people who were advertising on the page that you showed in Silk Road to exchange bitcoins, all of those things, all of those transactions still wind up on the block chain, correct?

MR. DRATEL: No, but if you were cashing out.

MR. DRATEL: The block chain, again, is this public ledger, right?

MR. DRATEL: That records every bitcoin transaction where -- in terms of everything that goes from bitcoin to cash, cash to bitcoin?

MR. DRATEL: So even bitcoin to bitcoin?

MR. DRATEL: I can't take -- there is no physical bitcoin, right?

MR. DRATEL: Right. So it -- and as of, let's say, prior to October of 2013, and even now, you can't -- I couldn't go and take a horde of bitcoins to someone and then cash it for them without it showing up on the block chain, right?

MR. DRATEL: Because they are not physical, they are a digital instrument, right?

MR. DRATEL: It doesn't exist outside of a digital character?

MR. DRATEL: And it was started in 2008 or so, right, it was invented, essentially?

MR. DRATEL: And the person who essentially invented them hasn't yet revealed themselves, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And it is a bit of a cottage industry to try and identify that person, correct?

MR. DRATEL: Now, each bitcoin has a unique digital identity, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And some of the elements of bitcoin are designed to prevent fraud, correct?

MR. DRATEL: Well, you can't duplicate a bitcoin, right?

MR. DRATEL: You can't, or you can?

MR. DRATEL: But it can't be counterfeited?

MR. DRATEL: But there are other ways to acquire bitcoins, correct?

MR. DRATEL: Can you describe what you understand to be bitcoin mining, m-i-n-i-n-g?

MR. DRATEL: So it is essentially not necessarily free but you don't have to pay for them, you have to -- you earn them essentially by --

MR. DRATEL: And those aren't -- I mean, those are still authorized bitcoins, right?

MR. DRATEL: Because the bitcoin universe is limited, right?

MR. DRATEL: One of the theories of the person who invented bitcoin was that it have a cap, and bitcoins are created periodically until that cap will be reached at some point, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And that's supposed to protect the valuation of bitcoin as opposed to -- I don't want to get too technical about it but monetary policy; that is why it is nongovernmental?

MR. DRATEL: Not just an ordinary computer running it, it had -- it is a complex operation to run, right?

MR. DRATEL: Silk Road, you have servers with significant computing power, right?

MR. DRATEL: Now, you also mentioned on direct that the value of a bitcoin fluctuates constantly?

MR. DRATEL: And in April of 2013 the market eclipsed $1 billion for the first time, right?

MR. DRATEL: And when you first got involved in the investigation, it was worth a couple of dollars, right, per bitcoin?

MR. DRATEL: And then you said that there was a point in 2013 where it went up to about 250, $250 per bitcoin?

MR. DRATEL: And then by the time of Mr. Ulbricht's arrest it was down to $100 per bitcoin?

MR. DRATEL: Then after his arrest it went up again, right?

MR. DRATEL: Dramatically?

MR. DRATEL: Up to a thousand dollars for a bitcoin?

MR. DRATEL: So people who were holding bitcoins at the time of Mr. Ulbricht's arrest and thereafter could really make a killing, right?

MR. DRATEL: And the more bitcoins you have, obviously, the more money you are going to make on that transaction, right?

MR. DRATEL: Have you ever seen a graph of bitcoin valuation over time?

MR. DRATEL: I show you what is marked as Defendant's B, for boy, and ask you if that is a representation of the fluctuation of the bitcoin marketplace from its inception through today -- not today, through this week?

MR. DRATEL: I move Defendant's B in evidence, your Honor.

MR. DRATEL: OK. So going back to 2011, if we look at the start in 2011, we see it is very close to zero, right?

MR. DRATEL: Then in 2013 is when it really starts to move, right?

MR. DRATEL: And then it goes down -- there is a spike in the early part of 2013, and then it goes back down to somewhere in the hundreds, right?

MR. DRATEL: I'm sorry. Do you have the --

MR. DRATEL: Can I borrow yours?

MR. DRATEL: I will just point it out.

MR. DRATEL: So there is a little spike in the middle of 2011, right?

MR. DRATEL: By the way, just -- and that is zero, right, that line there?

MR. DRATEL: And that goes up to over a thousand dollars per bitcoin?

MR. DRATEL: Do you know what it is now?

MR. DRATEL: So even though a lot of bitcoin use may have been attributable to Silk Road, it survives Silk Road?

MR. DRATEL: In fact, it's now used or accepted by certain large vendors, right, ordinary vendors? I'm not talking about Tor or illegal. Overstock.com accepts bitcoin?

MR. DRATEL: Certain casinos accept it?

MR. DRATEL: Now, you talked about the tumbler, right, on Silk Road?

MR. DRATEL: Just to refresh the jury, tumbler -- I'll just try to explain it shorthand -- which is something that's designed to create confusion about which specific bitcoins are involved in a specific transaction. Is that a fair statement?

MR. DRATEL: And do you know whether Silk -- do you know when Silk Road instituted tumbler?

MR. DRATEL: Do you know if Silk Road actually used a tumbler?

MR. DRATEL: And those started in 2012?

MR. DRATEL: In other words, your transactions --

MR. DRATEL: -- that would you monitor?

MR. DRATEL: So you were able, because you -- and you could see both sides of a bitcoin transaction, right --

MR. DRATEL: -- you were able to do some tracing, right?

MR. DRATEL: Even with a tumbler, you were able to do some tracing? Or even if they were tumbled, you were able to do some tracing?

MR. DRATEL: And that started in 2012?

MR. DRATEL: And you never heard of Mr. Ulbricht until September of 2013, right?

MR. DRATEL: Now, based on your training and experience, you concluded that the system was likely designed by someone with a high level of technical expertise concerning the operation of bitcoins, right?

MR. DRATEL: In fact, Silk Road had a lot of sophistication, right?

MR. DRATEL: And I mean that in a computer way as well as marketing and business oriented, right?

MR. DRATEL: In fact, it used leading-edge encryption-based technologies, right?

MR. DRATEL: And encryption-based technologies is really about security, right?

MR. DRATEL: And you reported, right, that the operators of the website are believed to be highly experienced web administrators that take precautionary steps to protect themselves and their users, right?

MR. DRATEL: Would they be the type of people who would leave handwritten notes in a wastebasket?

MR. DRATEL: You called it a complex criminal enterprise, right?

MR. DRATEL: And you used multiple confidential informants throughout the course of your investigation, right?

MR. DRATEL: Now, you have Mr. Ulbricht's passport still up there?

MR. DRATEL: And his birthdate is March 27, 1984?

MR. DRATEL: So in late 2010, he would be -- he would have been 26?

MR. DRATEL: Now, you said on direct Silk Road operated like a lot of other websites, correct, that operate on the ordinary Internet?

MR. DRATEL: And we saw on the left-hand side all the categories of merchandise, right?

MR. DRATEL: And by the time you were on the site in December of 2011, it had about 2,000 or so products for sale, right?

MR. DRATEL: Yeah, but I'm saying 2,000 products for sale total --

MR. DRATEL: -- like in December of 2011?

MR. DRATEL: And there were certain items -- by the time you got on the site, there were certain items that were forbidden, correct?

MR. DRATEL: Child pornography, counterfeit currency, weapons of mass destruction, right?

MR. DRATEL: Now, you interviewed -- as you said before, you interviewed some people who had ordered drugs and you'd go and then confront them sometimes, right?

MR. DRATEL: And they weren't of any help really in identifying Dread Pirate Roberts?

MR. DRATEL: And those vendors didn't give you access in terms of to who Dread Pirate Roberts was, right?

MR. DRATEL: Now, you mentioned that it was -- one of the seizures that was tested -- sorry. Withdrawn. One of the undercover buys that you made of the 50 or so undercover buys that you made from Silk Road, that one tested negative for drugs, right?

MR. DRATEL: But do you know how many other sales or scams or frauds that didn't provide real drugs in exchange for bitcoin?

MR. DRATEL: And it's kind of difficult for the consumer to go to the police or the fraud bureau for that, right?

MR. DRATEL: In one way that it differed from ordinary websites in some respects is that the vendors would come and go, right?

MR. DRATEL: They would vanish for a little bit, come back, vanish. It was not that kind of organization or continuity that you would find for, let's say, Amazon where sellers were there?

MR. DRATEL: Now, with respect to the commissions that Silk Road charged on transactions, January 2012 was when the commission structure changed, correct, and you put in those exhibits. And you verified that in September of 2012 when you opened up your first vendor account?

MR. DRATEL: And have you studied that since in terms of the volume over time?

MR. DRATEL: So 2013 was a huge year, right?

MR. DRATEL: 2013 was a huge year for Silk Road, right?

MR. DRATEL: There was a big spike in volume?

MR. DRATEL: Now, the silkroadmarket.org, that is something on the ordinary Internet, right, was?

MR. DRATEL: And the only way we have it is because of something called archive.org, right?

MR. DRATEL: And archive.org is an organization that is dedicated to capturing everything on the Internet, right?

MR. DRATEL: Not Tor?

MR. DRATEL: Not anything that's on Tor, but on the ordinary Internet, archive.org's purpose is to try to capture everything?

MR. DRATEL: Right. So if I put in Silk Road, that's all you come up with, is that Silk Road market.org, right, if you did that research?

MR. DRATEL: And that's the way for people to see historic pages on the Internet that don't exist anymore, that you just can't get. You type in a URL and the page no longer exists, right, when you get that kind of message, you can try archive.org to see whether something is there?

MR. DRATEL: So that silkmarket.org was just one page, right?

MR. DRATEL: Silkroadmarket.org?

MR. DRATEL: And that was a page essentially both -- if people put in Silk Road into their ordinary Internet computer, that they might get that and then be directed to Silk Road on Tor because it kind of told you how to get there, right?

MR. DRATEL: And that page stopped operating in April of 2012, right?

MR. DRATEL: And there were changes throughout to the site over time, right?

MR. DRATEL: No, I'm sorry. Let's go back to dot-onion.

MR. DRATEL: So, right, the site is changed in some ways over time, right?

MR. DRATEL: Also, even before that, did you know from reviewing forum messages and things like that, right, that in June of 2011, June 11 of 2011 in particular that there was a message that the site was closed for a while and that it would reopen in July, right?

MR. DRATEL: And that it was going to split into two sites and you've seen that post, right, the one where it's going to split into two sites?

MR. DRATEL: Well, one -- but you testified --

MR. DRATEL: It split into two sites, the marketplace and the forum?

MR. DRATEL: And you've seen that post that announced that, right?

MR. DRATEL: And that's June 2011?

MR. DRATEL: This is a good time.

MR. DRATEL: Yes.

MR. DRATEL: Purchaser, your Honor. Never mind. I thought he was --

MR. DRATEL: I think he was a purchaser because I think the testimony was essentially that when they confronted him with the package, he said, yeah, he ordered it off of Silk Road.

MR. DRATEL: I just wanted to project that this went faster than I anticipated in large part because of the witness' cooperative manner, so obviously that's very helpful and efficient. I'm coming to a more dense part, so it's hard to say. I think at least another two hours is my guess.

MR. DRATEL: I don't think he would be on before 4:00.

MR. DRATEL: We'll see how it goes.

MR. DRATEL: I will reevaluate at lunch what I think based on how it went this morning.

MR. DRATEL: No, your Honor.

MR. DRATEL: Thank you. JARED DER-YEGHIAYAN,

MR. DRATEL: Good afternoon, Agent Der-Yeghiayan.

MR. DRATEL: Ross Ulbricht, you learned during the course of your investigation he was an Eagle Scout?

MR. DRATEL: And that he was living in that house in San Francisco, right?

MR. DRATEL: I'm saying he was in there. There were others, as well, right?

MR. DRATEL: He shared that with other people?

MR. DRATEL: He was not the owner of the house, right?

MR. DRATEL: You said that in his bedroom, you found credit cards, bank statements, things like that, the passport, right?

MR. DRATEL: And you investigated all of that, correct?

MR. DRATEL: Because it was important to try to find out about money, right, bitcoin and location?

MR. DRATEL: And there was discussion -- withdrawn. And there was a concern about, not concern, but there was an interest in how and when and in what quantity Mr. Ulbricht may have cashed out bitcoins, right?

MR. DRATEL: Now, you, as a law enforcement officer in an undercover capacity, occupied and controlled the account for cirrus on Silk Road, right?

MR. DRATEL: From July -- late July, you said about the 26th, 27th of 2013?

MR. DRATEL: And cirrus is C-I-R-R-U-S, right?

MR. DRATEL: And that previously had been the account for scout?

MR. DRATEL: And scout changed it to cirrus before you took it over, right?

MR. DRATEL: About two or three weeks after you got control of the cirrus account, DPR, Dread Pirate Roberts, granted you administrative rights over the Wiki page?

MR. DRATEL: Did August 16 sound about right?

MR. DRATEL: You were given only limited privileges, correct?

MR. DRATEL: You never spoke to DPR on the telephone, right?

MR. DRATEL: You never communicated in a ordinary Internet electronic communication?

MR. DRATEL: Right. And the same was true of the other -- to your knowledge from your investigation and your interaction with the other administrators, the same was true with them as well, correct?

MR. DRATEL: Right. But I'm saying they didn't engage with DPR outside of Tor?

MR. DRATEL: And you saw no evidence of that in the course of your investigation?

MR. DRATEL: DPR would you say was careful to conceal his identity?

MR. DRATEL: And he set up a series of security measures on the site such as this tiered level of access even for administrators and employees?

MR. DRATEL: Now, for Government Exhibit 127, it's already in evidence.

MR. DRATEL: It's up there. These are the instructions that you were given by DPR on how to get administrative access, correct?

MR. DRATEL: I'm sorry?

MR. DRATEL: This was given to cirrus before you were cirrus?

MR. DRATEL: In essence -- now, did you learn how to get on the site from the person who was operating the cirrus account or did you go to this page to get the information?

MR. DRATEL: So, in essence, it was not a difficult process for someone to walk someone through the process of getting access, as long as you had the right password or access code?

MR. DRATEL: This is information that cirrus was given to log on, right?

MR. DRATEL: So it's a username, a domain, is that a, b, c and d. There's a username, domain and password that allow a certain amount of access, right?

MR. DRATEL: If you had the information for DPR's username, domain and password, that's how you would get to -- there's no other way to get in the site to your knowledge other than through this, just with a different password and a different domain and different username?

MR. DRATEL: And in terms of logging into the Pidgin chat, and just to refresh the jury's recollection, the Pidgin chat is the little box in the upper right that you were chatting with with DPR on October 1, and you had a couple of other instances of that as well, right?

MR. DRATEL: And that's not on the Silk Road site, correct?

MR. DRATEL: That's a separate encrypted chat system, right?

MR. DRATEL: But for that one, in terms of logging on, the steps that you went through with us are the only steps for logging on, right? Nothing more complicated than that?

MR. DRATEL: But that got you on the Pidgin chat, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And Adium is used more on Macs, right?

MR. DRATEL: You talked about timezones on that, right? And you're aware that Adium has a plugin, meaning an additional option that you can use to adjust the timezone?

MR. DRATEL: And the timezone that's reflected on that, that's really just a timezone of the person's computer who is logging on, right?

MR. DRATEL: So all that does is tell you where the computer timezone is, not where the computer is, but what timezone is provided to that --is programmed to that computer; is that accurate?

MR. DRATEL: Programmed to that computer?

MR. DRATEL: Also, those chats, don't they also contain a line, and we can look at it if you need to, but it says encrypted OTR chat initiated identity not verified the other side, right? Don't they say that?

MR. DRATEL: What I'm saying is, the ones that you've testified about, don't they say that? There's sort of a line that says it's encrypted, but the other side is not verified?

MR. DRATEL: And you said before you spent thousands of hours on the Silk Road site, right, in a variety of different roles essentially: Buyer, seller, administrator. Right?

MR. DRATEL: Right. Some of that, like you said, every couple of days in direct contact with DPR, right?

MR. DRATEL: Is it fair to say that during that entire period, DPR never let -- and I would say he, but it could be a she, right? We wouldn't know just from the screen, right? I mean, in essence, you don't know who you're talking to, right?

MR. DRATEL: DPR never let his or her guard down to give you a piece of personal information that enabled you to establish identity; is that fair to say?

MR. DRATEL: I'm not talking about gender. I'm just talking about in general.

MR. DRATEL: Never let his guard down. By the way, you were surprised that scout was a woman, right?

MR. DRATEL: I want to take you to the day of Mr. Ulbricht's arrest, all right. And just so it's clear, you had never seen Mr. Ulbricht in person prior to you going to California the day before?

MR. DRATEL: Did you identify him from photographs or from people pointing him out, you know, in other words, the other agents saying "that's him," or did you identify him -- in other words, did they say this is him and then when you saw the photo, you saw him?

MR. DRATEL: So that's how you were able to recognize him?

MR. DRATEL: He didn't have any kind of markedly -- or different appearance that would prevent you from recognizing him?

MR. DRATEL: You had never spoken to Mr. Ulbricht before that time, in other words, voice contact or anything else to your knowledge in terms of Ross Ulbricht?

MR. DRATEL: Now, I think you testified on direct that you wanted -- that the plan was to try to have Mr. Ulbricht out in public for purposes of effecting the arrest, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And that would be so he would be more vulnerable that way in terms of -- obviously in terms of just the immediacy of the arrest and your ability to track and all that, right?

MR. DRATEL: And you didn't, as cirrus, or anyone else to your knowledge didn't coax him out of his house, right?

MR. DRATEL: So he left his residence voluntarily, right, to go to, the day before you noted, to a public Wi-Fi spot, right?

MR. DRATEL: And then the next day, went to the cafe and then did not stay at the cafe but instead went to the public library?

MR. DRATEL: Right, right. But it was the plan to get him online during that period, right?

MR. DRATEL: By the way, you mentioned the passport and you seized the passport from his residence, right? That's an authentic U.S. passport, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And so, if we could pull up 129C, please.

MR. DRATEL: And that's the chat that you were having at the time of Mr. Ulbricht's arrest, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And so, you initiated, correct?

MR. DRATEL: And then you asked him can you check out one of the flagged messages for me, right?

MR. DRATEL: And dread says sure. And then the next thing he says is let me log in, right?

MR. DRATEL: So he needs to log into silkroad, correct?

MR. DRATEL: So he's already on the Internet. He's already active, so you're chatting with him, but until you ask him, he's not logged into silkroad, correct?

MR. DRATEL: Did you ever test it?

MR. DRATEL: During that period in the library, you're aware that there are law enforcement officers in the library, you're not sure who but you know there are people watching him, right?

MR. DRATEL: By the way, with respect to the mastermind, going back to the mastermind screen, you said that Mr. Kiernan is a computer scientist?

MR. DRATEL: That's how you described him. So you had to tell him to hit the "back" tab to find the previous screen?

MR. DRATEL: So before that chat, 129C on October 1, 2013, what was the time before that that you communicated with DPR?

MR. DRATEL: In fact, it was a couple of days, right?

MR. DRATEL: That day?

MR. DRATEL: Yes.

MR. DRATEL: But did that concern you at some point? I mean, did you talk to the other agents and ask them whether they got physical surveillance because Dread Pirate Roberts had not been on the staff chat for over two days and that was unusual?

MR. DRATEL: Do you recall?

MR. DRATEL: Do you recall specifically?

MR. DRATEL: I'm going to show you what's marked as 3505, 36 and 37. Just ask you to -- if you don't mind, I'll just point out to you where I prefer that you read rather than take time. So that and then through there. It goes up obviously from the oldest quote. Start on page 37 I think is how it works.

MR. DRATEL: So you wanted to know from Agent Tarbell whether they had physical surveillance because you said that not logging into IRC for over two days is unusual for DPR, right?

MR. DRATEL: There is also something else. Do you recall that on the 29th, which is two days before, that you noticed someone with a username peaceloveharmony was what you called sitting on DPR's profile for a couple of hours; do you recall that?

MR. DRATEL: I show you what's marked 3505-00775, and just ask you, again, read from the bottom to the top, essentially.